clouddancer
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Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
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In another thread, Hino opened up the question:
If we take LB's statement above,
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I figure the soldiers, to some degree, knew what they were getting themselves into, but no one asks the horses if they want to get shot up with arrows or bullets. |
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and apply it in a slightly different context, how does correlate to our favorite birdies (or does it)??
Ok, before everyone here looks at me cross-eyed, hear me out...
The members of the Science Ninja Team were basically taken and put into the position of battle. Since they were trained since they were children, no one really ever asked them if combat was something they wanted to do or not. So we can rationally say that Nambu (or Anderson) knew what he was getting the future members of the team into (theoretically speaking), whereas the ninjas themselves really had no idea or choice in the matter. Using LB's idea above, doesn't that make Nambu the soldier and the team members the horses???
Discuss.....
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by clouddancer on 12-07-2008 at 03:03.
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12-07-2008 03:02
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clouddancer
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LB then replied:
Ooh, this opens up all sorts of avenues of speculation. At what point did Nambu actually tell them exactly what he had in mind for them? And did he, at that time, present them with an option to opt out of the team, and go on to do something completely different?
I've always sort of figured that Joe ended up with Nambu when he was eight, after his parents were killed. Ken was probably already around Nambu a lot by then, as his mother was probably sick, and then died when he was eleven. I've generally assumed that Jun and Jinpei came some time after that, followed closely by (if not preceded by) Ryu. (Is there canon for any of this?)
One thing I know, personally, is that children can often be steered by their parents/guardian towards a particular path in life. Children often want to please their parents/guardian, and if something is continually presented to them as the expected/elite/heroic path, they might very well grow up wanting to do just that very thing. Also, children often don't want to be perceived as "letting down the team" where their siblings are concerned, and will stick to the designated path, in spite of misgivings, for fear of letting down the others.
At whatever age he told them he wanted them to be Science Ninjas, I suspect Nambu didn't have too much trouble getting them to go along with this willingly.
Now, this raises ethical issues galore! Does an adult have any business asking their children/wards (or any children), to agree to such a dangerous, life-threatening path? Can a child who is only, say 12-15, properly understand and consent to such a thing? What would Nambu have done if one of them had refused? Kick them out of the house? Say "fine" and let them do something completely different?
Watching Gatch I, I noticed that in the early episodes, Ken was all about the heroism and adventure of what they were doing, but you could see him getting more disillusioned, stressed, and bitter as the episodes went on. To me, it seemed like he was realizing that the very idealized, youthful notions he had about what they were doing were clashing with the nastier and messier reality of a prolonged, near stalemate, war.
What had Nambu told them to expect? Who knows?
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
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12-07-2008 03:04
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lborgia88
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It's just occurred to me that Joe knew that Galactor killed his parents. I'm sure he needed NO persuasion from Nambu to fight Galactor. Revenge would likely have been his main motivation to be a Science Ninja.
Ken, I think, would have been motivated by a desire to do the "right" thing, an interest in adventure, and desire, perhaps, to imitate his father (ie. being a pilot).
I think Jun, even at an earlier age, already had her caring/protective side (as seen in her "adoption" of Jinpei as her brother) and would have wanted to go on the team with the others to look out for them, and I also think she has her own taste for adventure (and fast motorcycles).
I see Ryu's motivations being similar -staunch loyalty to the others, and a desire to look out for them in any way he can.
Still, as willing as I think they all would have been, it's still a freaky thing on Nambu's part to want to turn his "children" into an elite combat team intended to fight a future terrorist menace! Perhaps he thought that Galactor would be easier to defeat than they turned out to be.
I would imagine that a big reason why the BOTP people turned Jinpei into Keyop, a creation from a genetics lab, with an odd voice, was to make him seem less like an ordinary 10 year old kid, and therefore less bizarre that he was expected to defend planets from an alien menace.
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12-07-2008 03:48
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clouddancer
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| quote: | Originally posted by lborgia88
It's just occurred to me that Joe knew that Galactor killed his parents. I'm sure he needed NO persuasion from Nambu to fight Galactor. Revenge would likely have been his main motivation to be a Science Ninja.
Ken, I think, would have been motivated by a desire to do the "right" thing, an interest in adventure, and desire, perhaps, to imitate his father (ie. being a pilot).
I think Jun, even at an earlier age, already had her caring/protective side (as seen in her "adoption" of Jinpei as her brother) and would have wanted to go on the team with the others to look out for them, and I also think she has her own taste for adventure (and fast motorcycles).
I see Ryu's motivations being similar -staunch loyalty to the others, and a desire to look out for them in any way he can.
Still, as willing as I think they all would have been, it's still a freaky thing on Nambu's part to want to turn his "children" into an elite combat team intended to fight a future terrorist menace! Perhaps he thought that Galactor would be easier to defeat than they turned out to be.
I would imagine that a big reason why the BOTP people turned Jinpei into Keyop, a creation from a genetics lab, with an odd voice, was to make him seem less like an ordinary 10 year old kid, and therefore less bizarre that he was expected to defend planets from an alien menace. |
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And that there is one of the concepts I am trying to wrap my mind around. How can, in my case Anderson, consider sending children let alone "his" children go into a war where they are likely to killed or have to kill.
I know a lot of people see Anderson (or Nambu) as being cold and heartless, but for some reason I see Anderson as really coming to love and care for the team. So how does he rationalize what he did and allowed to happen (implants require operations and perhaps experimentation being done) with his love for the team.
Right now in my AU, I see Anderson as being overridden by a higher authority, but seeing as Anderson IS the highest authority in the company that took charge of these children I am not so sure this works --- who would outrank a President of his own company and force him to do this to children????
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12-07-2008 15:39
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lborgia88
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I had a couple more thoughts.
In the very first episode of Gatchaman, the entire UN seems all shocked at Galactor's attack, and in fact, to have never heard of Galactor. Only Nambu seems to know about Galactor, and to have been expecting an attack of some kind sooner or later.
Maybe for years, his claims that a future global terrorist menace was growing and building strength were laughed off or ignored by the UN, and he ended up training his own wards, and using what ISO resources he could personally commandeer, plus his own money, because he couldn't get anyone else or any other funding.
It's also possible that he was expecting to have more time to prepare the team, and that the first Galactor attack came when, even in his opinion, they were too young, but he decided he didn't have any alternative. He was pretty cautious in the early episodes -ie. telling them only to follow the turtle mecha, not engage it directly, or making them ask permission first before firing bird missiles.
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12-07-2008 17:01
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amyltrer
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RE: Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
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| quote: | Originally posted by clouddancer
The members of the Science Ninja Team were basically taken and put into the position of battle. Since they were trained since they were children, no one really ever asked them if combat was something they wanted to do or not. So we can rationally say that Nambu (or Anderson) knew what he was getting the future members of the team into (theoretically speaking), whereas the ninjas themselves really had no idea or choice in the matter. Using LB's idea above, doesn't that make Nambu the soldier and the team members the horses???
Discuss..... |
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No! Nambu is not a soldier!The very definitiion of a soldier is that of a man who stands against the enemy on the battlefield (Gallactor mechas most of the time)
Is the team who does that! Nambu is just coordinating them from behind his office at the ISO quarters. In an war-like analogy he would be the leading General.
The team members have been prepared for just this fight against Gallactor.Of, course, all 5 of them had been highly trained, but in every war, 
Soldiers are expendable assests and from what I've seen in the first Gatch, the Jigokiller eps, Nambu is willing to expend one to save the day. And just look how quick he replaced Joe with Getz in Gatch 2.
Given the fact Gatchaman act all as one, that could render the remaining members unable to cope with the stress, to a degree.
As for them not being asked if they want or not to be soldiers in this war, this is one of the nasty sides of ISO (or at least Nambu's) that cartoon editors choose to left in the shadow - children exploitment. From what I've seen they aren't well remunerated either.
Back to Nambu, he knew about Gallactor long before the Syndicate became strong enough to threaten world security! How is that he didn't came up with a better solution than a team of 5 kids?
In BotP Anderson is shown as a paternal figure for the team, something I hardly saw in the original Gatch, where he mostly bosses them around! Which makes me think he sees them more as defense weapons against gallactor, more than anything.
I'm not saying Nambu is a coward. In the 37 and 42 eps of Fighter he displays great skills with a gun. I can only guess he chose to stay off the battle because he's much usefull as the "brain" rather than a mere soldier.
Anyway, I never liked Nambu very much. For someone playing on the good side, he's way too manipulating.
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12-07-2008 20:01
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katsesama
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RE: Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
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| quote: | Originally posted by amyltrer
No! Nambu is not a soldier!The very definitiion of a soldier is that of a man who stands against the enemy on the battlefield (Gallactor mechas most of the time)
Is the team who does that! Nambu is just coordinating them from behind his office at the ISO quarters. In an war-like analogy he would be the leading General. |
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Well, at one time he fought as a foot soldier. I guess that's true of generals, too. But I think Nambu could totally hold his own; he just found other ways he could contribute to the war that nobody else could.
In times of war, the amount of great art, writing, etc. goes down, because those people are being killed. So one can argue that Nambu was smart enough to pull himself off the front lines and contribute uniquely.
One could also argue that he took away the choices of five children who might have become great in other ways. (Has anybody written a ff about a life without Galactor or the KNT? How they would have turned out differently?)
I think it's totally unethical to raise children that way; I think it's downright criminal, to the point that I get really fired up about it, so I may not really be able to participate in this thread. I've thought a lot about it, too, before this, and it actually makes me angry. I think it has to do with working with kids in therapy who have been traumatized.
I disagree with it in war-torn lands, too, but at least it makes some sense when you could get blown up walking down the street and every available fighter is needed. To take children and train them to be super-soldiers destroys their youth and any hopes of growing up and having a "normal" life, all before they're developmentally able to make informed or moral choices.
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12-07-2008 21:29
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Ebonyswanne
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RE: Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
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| quote: | Originally posted by katsesama
Well, at one time he fought as a foot soldier. I guess that's true of generals, too. But I think Nambu could totally hold his own; he just found other ways he could contribute to the war that nobody else could.
In times of war, the amount of great art, writing, etc. goes down, because those people are being killed. So one can argue that Nambu was smart enough to pull himself off the front lines and contribute uniquely.
One could also argue that he took away the choices of five children who might have become great in other ways. (Has anybody written a ff about a life without Galactor or the KNT? How they would have turned out differently?)
I think it's totally unethical to raise children that way; I think it's downright criminal, to the point that I get really fired up about it, so I may not really be able to participate in this thread. I've thought a lot about it, too, before this, and it actually makes me angry. I think it has to do with working with kids in therapy who have been traumatized.
I disagree with it in war-torn lands, too, but at least it makes some sense when you could get blown up walking down the street and every available fighter is needed. To take children and train them to be super-soldiers destroys their youth and any hopes of growing up and having a "normal" life, all before they're developmentally able to make informed or moral choices. |
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We do need to protect children from trauma.
A young child can still learn how to defend themselves,(through martial arts,) but there has to be right and wrong taught alone side it. (Like you don't use it to bully others...)
I have relatives that are farmers that don't let a child near a gun until they get a license and show they can respect its power it ability to cause harm or death to people. Usually they would be 12yrs onward, then they can't touch the rifle without an adult around to supervise, its kept in a metal locked Safe when its not needed. (I can't use a gun, personally I hate them. I understand why a farmer needs one, but they rarely use them.)
The team have a very ethical out look,( which is why despite Joe's pent up anger, and distrust of people outside of his Immediate circle, I don't see him as a bad boy.) I have to wonder if RI had something to do with Ken becoming a Ninja anyway.
Katsesama if you have helped kids overcome trauma I can understand why it would anger you... You don't have to be a parent to be protective of a child's emotional state and well being.
I'm very protective of what my child see's even at 15 months. (A child knows his/her world more than we think especially from 12 month onward.)
I feel that even in the old days when a young boy trained as a Knight from the age of 7yrs old they would have been protected from the reality (depending upon the knight that trained them, their ethics had to come into it...) of war until they showed they were ready... Probably about 16yrs onward, but then everyday life held a risk of your village being raided. Different world.
ITA about war torn countries, who am I to judge... I don't have to worry about being shot if I step outside of my front door...but then its the brainwashing that goes on with those kids that scares me more than the gun they carry...
Ficcie that made it all to be in Nambu's head.
There is a ficcie that someone wrote as if Galactor didn't exist, and Dr.Nambu was considered extreme in his views. Its was interesting to read, Joe became a Cop in it, Ken a test pilot, Jun ran the Snack J... Jinpei was at school...
Did any of that make any sense???? I'm outta here!
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Ebonyswanne on 13-07-2008 at 04:42.
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13-07-2008 04:38
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gatchgirl
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13-07-2008 14:40
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