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Gatchamaniac
I am a Condor.
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Registration Date: 15-11-2009
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I'm not sure about how well those programs work, Wade. I did 2 years at uni and then lived there for 5 years, working in a Japanese day care centre, surrounded by the language day in, day out.
Admittedly that was, um... 7 years ago now and I've forgotten a lot, but I can tell you I wouldn't have been able to follow a lot of the dialogue, even in my final year. Pokemon, yes, Gatchaman, no - the dialogue is more technical...
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Exaggeration misleads the credulous and offends the perceptive. ~Eliza Cook
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02-04-2010 06:37
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amethyst
Wanted: $1000 Reward
I am a Condor.
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Posts: 6248
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Since this thread has taken a turn towards language, English being my area of expertise but also learning and know how to teach it to non-native learners, here's my two cents, again.
Research shows that it takes seven years of study and immersion to gain academic competence in a language (longer if you are not using it everyday). [rant]-- Gee, any one in the US wonder why California, Texas, New York, and Florida are so lagging in the bottom half of test scores.[/rant]
Plus, for adult learners, one can usually only achieve an equal level of literacy as he/she has in his/her native language. Basically, if you are illiterate in your first language, you will be so in second, third, etc; however, theoretically if you have a high level literacy (read college texts, etc) you can achieve the same in a second, third or possibly even forth language.
Now, what this research may or may not take into consideration is dialect or jargon (Gatchaman has both). Example: UK English, US English, Canadian English, or Australian English being the major English Languages, but there are at least a dozen or so minor ones that are not even similar to those four (Jamaican is close, but there are a few African Englishes that look/sound nothing like them). I bring this up because of the regional dialects. Each of the Englishes listed above also have regional dialects for the best international example think British RP versus Cockney Rhyme slang. This could make translating Ryu difficult if you were not used to his dialect (James will likely correct me here, but I do believe from what I've read, I've not studied Japanese and no little about the language, is that Ryu's dialect was toned done for the the series).
The jargon I won't get into, because some of it has changed in the last nearly 40 years and some of it was just wrong in the first place.
Wade, I am sorry if we keeping making your dream sound less and less possible, but look at this way: When you do realize it, you'll have had most of the major bugs discussed here first and have an idea on how to deal with them.
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Perspective Alters Reality
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02-04-2010 15:40
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Hinotori
Babbling Loonie
I am an Eagle.
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Registration Date: 09-10-2007
Posts: 2004
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This seems to be a moot point now, but just to let people know... There are programs out there that you can record and edit audio and/or music tracks on. Professionally (or if you just know someone with lots of money), there's ProTools. A little more on the, ummm, economic side, there's Cakewalk. And a whole slew of other digital audio recording/editing programs.
I haven't done it in eons, but, personally, I love digital editing audio (especially spoken word - so easy to cut!). But, the time, effort, legalities, and lack of original M&E track (though it could be fun to be our own foley artists!) would most likely preclude just about anyone from doing it. But if anyone wants to, I'd love to get a finished copy!!! 
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Hinotori
Eagle in Charge
    
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03-04-2010 20:47
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WadeInLincoln
Junior Member
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Had to do a little more digging on this subject before inserting my foot deeper in my mouth.
I am normally one of those too, who if someone comes up with an neat idea, usually the first thing that comes to my mind is all the obstacles that must be faced. It's nice to sit on the other side of the fence for a change. Even thou I don't know how long I can stay there.
In my recent quest for knowledge I discovered I skipped over some important information concerning ADV and their attempts to translate. Referring to the Extras on ADV Vol. 8 the interview with the Senior Translator, Sarah Alys Lindholm. Here is a few items of interest from the interview that I was quickly able to write down....
- The translation of Japanese from Gatchaman is fairly simple because it was intended children
-The translation of Gatchaman's scientific concepts is extremely hard because it is so old and outdated that finding ways to describe the science of Gatchaman can be the biggest challenge. One must figure out 1) What did they say? 2) What did they think they said? 3) Is there any science they are trying to base this on?
-The translation "team" also had problems because Gatchaman likes to use Real World Locations. She gave the example of the 'moving lake' (Red Sand episode). There is a place in the world called the 'Moving Lake' but the way the Japanese say it, it can not be translated easily.
-The Japanese language in Gatchaman is also very Tongue-and-Cheek (as Lindholm puts it) and can also make for lots of translation problems. Also Gatchaman is filled with a lot of trajedy and drama which you have to worry about context (believe that was already mentioned here)
-She mentions her translation team but fails to tell how many people were part of this team but Lindholm makes it sound like there was a small room of them. The translation department's favorite character was Berg K. Lindholm did the translations by herself for the first 15 ADV episodes before given the team to work with. By herself, she was able to translate 3 to 4 episodes a week which she felt was longer then the other translating she has done for similiar projects.
-Lindholm also very briefly mentions Sandy Frank and his group. It's weird because when she starts talking about him, there is a definite 'fear factor' kicking in. She sounds very nervous and worried when bringing up Frank's name. She goes out of her way twice to be extremely respectful to Frank. (I need to learn more about this man). Lindholm continues on how Sandy Frank had some input with the ADV translation and the spelling of the monster's names. What I kind of got from it was, whatever Frank wanted... Frank got.
That's all I wrote down and I know I missed some stuff there. Good interview, reccommend anyone interested in this subject to check it out. Lindholm also had some interesting opinions concerning the Ken/Jun relationship or lack of one.
The more I learn about the translation side of original Japanese Gatchaman series, the more of an arguement I can make for.... Any translation of Gatchaman is false and incorrect. Unless you can watch and understand Gatchaman in it's original format, you will always be watching someone else's interpretation of the show, it does not matter if it's ADV, BotP, G-Force or Eagle Riders as close as 'some' of these may be, it is not true/pure Gatchaman. Every time I turn on one of those ADV Extras with the Director, he is always mentioning how they changed this, added that, or add-libbed this.
I guess what I am trying to say is, any translation is good enough for me as long as it fits within the story's context. That's the way I have to watch it any how. So keep it coming.
My next baby-step here is looking more into the whole copyright side of things, especially those concerning fans. I'm also curious why fan-fiction stories are/are not some type of copyright infrigment. Not that I am trying to cause trouble for you all, but simply to understand why some methods are allowed while others are not.
Happy Easter everyone.
And if Easter isn't your thing, have a wonderful day, full of good spirit none the less.
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04-04-2010 16:06
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UnpublishedWriter
Gatchamaniac
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Registration Date: 31-08-2009
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Every once in a while in a manga, I come across dialogue that makes me wondered what happened to the people doing the translating. The English gets all wierd.
And if you use those translators for foreign-language sites, you'll notice that the English is also -- odd.
Translation is not just about the words, but the meaning of the sentences and phrases. So, in that sense, all translations are 'wrong.' Pick up different translations of the same work, and you will find they are not identical for that reason.
(Husein Hadawy, in forwards to his translations of 'The Arabian Nights' and another book containing the stories of Sinbad and Aladdin, castigates 19th Century translators of the originals. Seems that, besides censoring things, they also missed the point of entire passages and often ruined the poetic passages by making them into overwrought rubbish. His translations are much more readable.)
Some writers are probably unhappy with fanfiction because some of it is very bad, other fanfic writers completely misinterpret what's going on, and then there are the things that somehow become fanon and affect how the fans see future works by that author.
(I'll have to check, but I think Sandy Frank had the rights to Gatch at the time of the ADV translations. That has now lapsed.)
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Benefits, not features; benefits, not features
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04-04-2010 18:28
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yul
Exalted Member
I am an Egoblosser.
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Registration Date: 19-08-2006
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WadeInLincoln, the idea to translate Gatch episodes is good. VERY GOOD. But without practice in Japanese such a difficult project is a little senseless:
1. You`ll lose a LOT of time. And spoken language is much more difficult for perception than texts, it`s the next level of language knowledge.
2. The translation will be "He/she said something like...", not ""He/she said...". And not because you don`t do your best, just because you are a beginner.
Besides, the common sense of many scenes is rather simple for intuitive understanding without translation. I think, all of us can watch Gatch in Japanese, but we need detailes and nuances.
About copyrights: the best way is to create fansubs for non-commercial use, not voice-over.
| quote: | Originally posted by tatsunokofan
Either way, the end result would not be a true dub of Gatchaman II or Gatchaman Fighter, and would probably sound fairly awful. |
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And, IMHO (don`t kick me) all voice translations, even professional ones, totally suck in comparison with original voices.
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04-04-2010 21:48
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Hinotori
Babbling Loonie
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I'm starting to delve a little more into translations at my job (since it's an international science organization, we're trying to accommodate more our members throughout the world), and the first thing I've learned is that translating any language into another language is very subjective. I can't tell you how many times I've sent out a document for translation, received it back, had someone else who's a native speaker read it for accuracy, and be told that "this should be changed to that, and that should read this instead". Now, I've sent the material to a professional translation company, so I'm confident that what they wrote is correct. But it seems that there are different ways to write (or speak), depending on the situation and information you want to get across. For example, i just sent an ad out for translation into Arabic, and when I was speaking to my contact at the translation company, one of the first things she said to me was "do you want an exact translation, or do you want it written in the context that the ad is given?" Interesting question, since I never even considered that before...
Now that I'm learning more about translations, I'm seeing how difficult (maybe that should be "challenging") it is to translate any show from one language to another. Personally, I'm happy to have any translation of the anime I enjoy, just so I know what's going on and can get the overall idea of the story/plot. I know it's not exact, but it's ok. And fills in the blanks nicely.
I thnk this is also why I prefer subs to dubs. Subs are a little more "true" to the original language/idea. Plus I like listening to the original voice-track. The way a word or phrase iis spoken and the emotion put into it really carries the idea. JMHO on that one!
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Hinotori
Eagle in Charge
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04-04-2010 23:57
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Which would be about how long it would take me to do it anyway.
LOL if you're referring to me ... then I must hurry before, I, myself, turn into ashes! And if, by any chance, you were to supercede me I wouldn't like to live the rest of my short life haunted by an unsatisfied Wade! 
