Gatchamania.net (http://www.gatchamania.net/index.php)
- [Gatchaman Library] (http://www.gatchamania.net/board.php?boardid=300)
-- Gatchaman II (http://www.gatchamania.net/board.php?boardid=712)
--- I just can't believe (http://www.gatchamania.net/threadid.php?threadid=2947)
Posted by WadeInLincoln on 02-04-2010 at 06:27:
If the experts are correct in the average lifespan of us human beings, I got about 35 years left for you to get done. But I warn you, I can be impatient 
Which would be about how long it would take me to do it anyway.
Speaking of hobbys / ways of life, why can't I take some those classes I mentioned and do my own thing? Anyone ever try that Rosetta Stone language program? I hear that's a good, fast way to learn a new language.
Live. Breathe. Be. 
__________________
Bird Go!!!
Posted by green on 02-04-2010 at 06:37:
I'm not sure about how well those programs work, Wade. I did 2 years at uni and then lived there for 5 years, working in a Japanese day care centre, surrounded by the language day in, day out.
Admittedly that was, um... 7 years ago now and I've forgotten a lot, but I can tell you I wouldn't have been able to follow a lot of the dialogue, even in my final year. Pokemon, yes, Gatchaman, no - the dialogue is more technical...
__________________
Exaggeration misleads the credulous and offends the perceptive. ~Eliza Cook
Posted by gatchamarie on 02-04-2010 at 15:05:
| quote: | |
|
LOL if you're referring to me ... then I must hurry before, I, myself, turn into ashes! And if, by any chance, you were to supercede me I wouldn't like to live the rest of my short life haunted by an unsatisfied Wade! 
__________________
To be or not to be a gatchamaniac - that's the dilemma!
Posted by amethyst on 02-04-2010 at 15:40:
Since this thread has taken a turn towards language, English being my area of expertise but also learning and know how to teach it to non-native learners, here's my two cents, again.
Research shows that it takes seven years of study and immersion to gain academic competence in a language (longer if you are not using it everyday). [rant]-- Gee, any one in the US wonder why California, Texas, New York, and Florida are so lagging in the bottom half of test scores.[/rant]
Plus, for adult learners, one can usually only achieve an equal level of literacy as he/she has in his/her native language. Basically, if you are illiterate in your first language, you will be so in second, third, etc; however, theoretically if you have a high level literacy (read college texts, etc) you can achieve the same in a second, third or possibly even forth language.
Now, what this research may or may not take into consideration is dialect or jargon (Gatchaman has both). Example: UK English, US English, Canadian English, or Australian English being the major English Languages, but there are at least a dozen or so minor ones that are not even similar to those four (Jamaican is close, but there are a few African Englishes that look/sound nothing like them). I bring this up because of the regional dialects. Each of the Englishes listed above also have regional dialects for the best international example think British RP versus Cockney Rhyme slang. This could make translating Ryu difficult if you were not used to his dialect (James will likely correct me here, but I do believe from what I've read, I've not studied Japanese and no little about the language, is that Ryu's dialect was toned done for the the series).
The jargon I won't get into, because some of it has changed in the last nearly 40 years and some of it was just wrong in the first place.
Wade, I am sorry if we keeping making your dream sound less and less possible, but look at this way: When you do realize it, you'll have had most of the major bugs discussed here first and have an idea on how to deal with them.
__________________
Perspective Alters Reality
Posted by Transmute Jun on 02-04-2010 at 15:53:
| quote: | |||||||
|
Gatch is my obsession.
__________________
Posted by Transmute Jun on 02-04-2010 at 15:54:
| quote: | |
|
Marie, you may want co-ordinate with what Daniella's done.
http://gatchaman.freevar.com/
__________________
Posted by tatsunokofan on 02-04-2010 at 16:41:
Hi all!
| quote: | |
|
Ryu can be a pain, because he speaks in what would be considered a "country boy" type of accent. Joe can also be difficult at times, because he speaks in a curt, tough guy-type of accent.
James
Posted by amethyst on 02-04-2010 at 16:54:
Thanks James! I didn't even think of Joe being difficult to translate. I guess that's my inexperience with the Japanese language; my ears didn't pick an accent difference with Joe, but Ryu was obvious.
__________________
Perspective Alters Reality
Posted by UnpublishedWriter on 02-04-2010 at 21:05:
All of these 'speak like a native in [an absurdly short period of time]' programs are a crock. If Green couldn't speak like a native after two years of school and five years of living in Japan, none of us are going to do it with a 'Learn A Foreign Language in Five Minutes' language 'program' while surrounded by people who can barely speak English (and I am not talking about immigrants).
And that's not counting dialects, euphemisms, and idioms. As an example: in rural parts of the South, 'hitting on' someone refers to physical violence. (And that's if the Southerner in question isn't chewing on the words so badly that you wonder if those really are words. I've met some people who make Boomhauer from 'King of the Hill' sound articulate.)
__________________
Benefits, not features; benefits, not features
Posted by lborgia88 on 03-04-2010 at 03:05:
I agree. I took French in school from grade 4 through grade 12 and lived in Montreal as an undergrad, but even then I doubt I could have translated a French movie or TV show to any useful extent -learning to understand a spoken language, especially in casual use (not a formal speech of some kind) with lots of slang is hard, or it is for me, at least. Reading is easier.
Posted by gatchamarie on 03-04-2010 at 18:29:
| quote: | |
|
Thanks for the link, TJ! It can surely come handy!
As regards to languages, what you others have said is true! Even if you do study a foreign language for so many years it's still difficult to understand natives speaking such a language with all their dialects and slang ... even watching a film could be difficult, if not more! It's easier to write it than to speak it ... I, myself, have to think before I speak a foreign language, especially if I do not speak it regularly! With the Italian language, it's somewhat different though! Although the language has a lot of dialects, these are only used in certain regions amongst citizens. On TV they generally use the straight-forward Italian and it's very easy to understand it if you know the language!
__________________
To be or not to be a gatchamaniac - that's the dilemma!
Posted by Hinotori on 03-04-2010 at 20:47:
This seems to be a moot point now, but just to let people know... There are programs out there that you can record and edit audio and/or music tracks on. Professionally (or if you just know someone with lots of money), there's ProTools. A little more on the, ummm, economic side, there's Cakewalk. And a whole slew of other digital audio recording/editing programs.
I haven't done it in eons, but, personally, I love digital editing audio (especially spoken word - so easy to cut!). But, the time, effort, legalities, and lack of original M&E track (though it could be fun to be our own foley artists!) would most likely preclude just about anyone from doing it. But if anyone wants to, I'd love to get a finished copy!!! 
__________________
Hinotori
Eagle in Charge
Posted by WadeInLincoln on 04-04-2010 at 16:06:
Had to do a little more digging on this subject before inserting my foot deeper in my mouth.
I am normally one of those too, who if someone comes up with an neat idea, usually the first thing that comes to my mind is all the obstacles that must be faced. It's nice to sit on the other side of the fence for a change. Even thou I don't know how long I can stay there.
In my recent quest for knowledge I discovered I skipped over some important information concerning ADV and their attempts to translate. Referring to the Extras on ADV Vol. 8 the interview with the Senior Translator, Sarah Alys Lindholm. Here is a few items of interest from the interview that I was quickly able to write down....
- The translation of Japanese from Gatchaman is fairly simple because it was intended children
-The translation of Gatchaman's scientific concepts is extremely hard because it is so old and outdated that finding ways to describe the science of Gatchaman can be the biggest challenge. One must figure out 1) What did they say? 2) What did they think they said? 3) Is there any science they are trying to base this on?
-The translation "team" also had problems because Gatchaman likes to use Real World Locations. She gave the example of the 'moving lake' (Red Sand episode). There is a place in the world called the 'Moving Lake' but the way the Japanese say it, it can not be translated easily.
-The Japanese language in Gatchaman is also very Tongue-and-Cheek (as Lindholm puts it) and can also make for lots of translation problems. Also Gatchaman is filled with a lot of trajedy and drama which you have to worry about context (believe that was already mentioned here)
-She mentions her translation team but fails to tell how many people were part of this team but Lindholm makes it sound like there was a small room of them. The translation department's favorite character was Berg K. Lindholm did the translations by herself for the first 15 ADV episodes before given the team to work with. By herself, she was able to translate 3 to 4 episodes a week which she felt was longer then the other translating she has done for similiar projects.
-Lindholm also very briefly mentions Sandy Frank and his group. It's weird because when she starts talking about him, there is a definite 'fear factor' kicking in. She sounds very nervous and worried when bringing up Frank's name. She goes out of her way twice to be extremely respectful to Frank. (I need to learn more about this man). Lindholm continues on how Sandy Frank had some input with the ADV translation and the spelling of the monster's names. What I kind of got from it was, whatever Frank wanted... Frank got.
That's all I wrote down and I know I missed some stuff there. Good interview, reccommend anyone interested in this subject to check it out. Lindholm also had some interesting opinions concerning the Ken/Jun relationship or lack of one.
The more I learn about the translation side of original Japanese Gatchaman series, the more of an arguement I can make for.... Any translation of Gatchaman is false and incorrect. Unless you can watch and understand Gatchaman in it's original format, you will always be watching someone else's interpretation of the show, it does not matter if it's ADV, BotP, G-Force or Eagle Riders as close as 'some' of these may be, it is not true/pure Gatchaman. Every time I turn on one of those ADV Extras with the Director, he is always mentioning how they changed this, added that, or add-libbed this.
I guess what I am trying to say is, any translation is good enough for me as long as it fits within the story's context. That's the way I have to watch it any how. So keep it coming.
My next baby-step here is looking more into the whole copyright side of things, especially those concerning fans. I'm also curious why fan-fiction stories are/are not some type of copyright infrigment. Not that I am trying to cause trouble for you all, but simply to understand why some methods are allowed while others are not.
Happy Easter everyone.
And if Easter isn't your thing, have a wonderful day, full of good spirit none the less.
__________________
Bird Go!!!
Posted by amethyst on 04-04-2010 at 18:02:
Happy Easter Wade, and everyone else.
For copyright, fanfiction falls into something considered fair-use (the same reason teachers can copy small portions of text for use in the classroom ). Basically the main reason fanfic writers can get away with it is it is for fun and entertainment, not for profit; it is also considered a parody. Some authors have tried to stop it and many have publicly declared they do not approve of fanfiction from their work.
As, for translation remember that it is an art not a science and can only be as good as the translator.
__________________
Perspective Alters Reality
Posted by UnpublishedWriter on 04-04-2010 at 18:28:
Every once in a while in a manga, I come across dialogue that makes me wondered what happened to the people doing the translating. The English gets all wierd.
And if you use those translators for foreign-language sites, you'll notice that the English is also -- odd.
Translation is not just about the words, but the meaning of the sentences and phrases. So, in that sense, all translations are 'wrong.' Pick up different translations of the same work, and you will find they are not identical for that reason.
(Husein Hadawy, in forwards to his translations of 'The Arabian Nights' and another book containing the stories of Sinbad and Aladdin, castigates 19th Century translators of the originals. Seems that, besides censoring things, they also missed the point of entire passages and often ruined the poetic passages by making them into overwrought rubbish. His translations are much more readable.)
Some writers are probably unhappy with fanfiction because some of it is very bad, other fanfic writers completely misinterpret what's going on, and then there are the things that somehow become fanon and affect how the fans see future works by that author.
(I'll have to check, but I think Sandy Frank had the rights to Gatch at the time of the ADV translations. That has now lapsed.)
__________________
Benefits, not features; benefits, not features
Posted by Madilayn on 04-04-2010 at 20:39:
Most authors are unhappy about fanfic, but let it go as it's not sold and the fanfic author makes no money from it.
There are another group of authors who absolutely adore fanfic - Barbara Hambly is one - she started off writing fanfic. JK Rowling likes a lot of fanfic (her lawyers on the other hand have been knwon to try to chase fanfic authors but failed).
Anne McCaffrey (Dragonriders of Pern series) took a completely different tack. She basically said use my worlds, but don't use my characters because I'm not finished with them yet. She later asked her fans not to write fanfic set within the current timelines of her novels. This tack has worked incredibly well - she has an extremely good relationship with her fans and actively runs her ideas past them as well as on her boards is happy to take ideas from them. She's also asked fans for technical help.
__________________
"When I'm old, I don't want them to say of me, "She's so charming." I want them to say, "Be careful, I think she's armed." -G. Stoddart
Posted by yul on 04-04-2010 at 21:48:
WadeInLincoln, the idea to translate Gatch episodes is good. VERY GOOD. But without practice in Japanese such a difficult project is a little senseless:
1. You`ll lose a LOT of time. And spoken language is much more difficult for perception than texts, it`s the next level of language knowledge.
2. The translation will be "He/she said something like...", not ""He/she said...". And not because you don`t do your best, just because you are a beginner.
Besides, the common sense of many scenes is rather simple for intuitive understanding without translation. I think, all of us can watch Gatch in Japanese, but we need detailes and nuances.
About copyrights: the best way is to create fansubs for non-commercial use, not voice-over.
| quote: | |
|
And, IMHO (don`t kick me) all voice translations, even professional ones, totally suck in comparison with original voices.
__________________
Breathe in and breathe out
Posted by Hinotori on 04-04-2010 at 23:57:
I'm starting to delve a little more into translations at my job (since it's an international science organization, we're trying to accommodate more our members throughout the world), and the first thing I've learned is that translating any language into another language is very subjective. I can't tell you how many times I've sent out a document for translation, received it back, had someone else who's a native speaker read it for accuracy, and be told that "this should be changed to that, and that should read this instead". Now, I've sent the material to a professional translation company, so I'm confident that what they wrote is correct. But it seems that there are different ways to write (or speak), depending on the situation and information you want to get across. For example, i just sent an ad out for translation into Arabic, and when I was speaking to my contact at the translation company, one of the first things she said to me was "do you want an exact translation, or do you want it written in the context that the ad is given?" Interesting question, since I never even considered that before...
Now that I'm learning more about translations, I'm seeing how difficult (maybe that should be "challenging") it is to translate any show from one language to another. Personally, I'm happy to have any translation of the anime I enjoy, just so I know what's going on and can get the overall idea of the story/plot. I know it's not exact, but it's ok. And fills in the blanks nicely.
I thnk this is also why I prefer subs to dubs. Subs are a little more "true" to the original language/idea. Plus I like listening to the original voice-track. The way a word or phrase iis spoken and the emotion put into it really carries the idea. JMHO on that one!
__________________
Hinotori
Eagle in Charge
Posted by Barrdwing on 07-04-2010 at 01:09:
Actually, at any given Gatch get-together, when an episode is being shown, it's generally the subject of considerable discussion . . . MST3K style. For some reason it just seems to work out that way. 
Posted by Reboekah on 07-04-2010 at 02:09:
| quote: | |
|
No reason for that... none at all!
Just too much time in a small room...
__________________
-Boeke
Bird Scramble OE
155 issues - 36.5Years! - and flying high!
Powered by: Burning Board Lite 1.1.2c © 2001-2004 WoltLab GmbH
English translation by Satelk
Site Coded by Cep