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Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 20-05-2010 at 22:17:
Help
Wibble time for this little Swan-turned-wedgetail ...
I've mentioned before that I have a brilliant child, who has appaling behaviour.
I've done everything I possibly can, and used every available suggestion to try to correct things when Joshie goes astray ... but nothing works.
School was initially proving good for him. He was learning astonishingly fast and enjoying himself. He was making friends and was settling down....
Until a few months ago... Things started on a downhill slide. He's bored in class and appears to be acting up in a spectacular manner.
There is not a single day that he doesn't end up with time out. He's swearing. He's hitting. He's not listening.
The teacher has said nothing to me about it -- I get this information from Josh when we sit and talk after I get home from work .... I had to phone the teacher in a panic when on three consecutive days, Josh reported he was violent to other kids. Day one-- pinched a girl. Day two -- spat on one. Day three -- punched one in the stomach.
When I finally got the teacher, she said: "Oh it's nothing. We had one of his teachers off for a week and the co-op student left, so he was disrupted. Nothing to worry about."
I was mortified ... I am NOT going to raise a bully, so I need to know when he does this so I can deal with it now, not later!
So ... report comes in. He's brilliant and very highly advanced for his age group -- he just doesn't listen. "We will gently remind him to listen"
Then comes my little man not wanting to go to school -- horrifying for a mother of jr kindergarten child to hear.
Teacher thinks nothing of it.
His behaviour is worsening. We can't handle him at home, he screams, he hits, he swears, he gets violent.
But nothing from school, so he must be okay there ...
Until today. His teacher cornered my SIL (who looks after him when I'm at work) to tell her that Josh has no friends at school, that none of the other kids like him .... then leaves it at that.
I've had no note. No phone call. I am in the dark...
I've tried talking to Josh to find out what's happening. I see him with other kids when we go out, and he's fine with them. In fact, many of our friend's kids absolutely love him .... of course, they are all about three years older than he is, and he seems at their level. Aside from his tiny stature, you'd think he was in their age group with the conversations and fun.
He is an energizer bunny and does get hyper-excited when in play ...
I considered ... gah ... ADHD(?) ADD(?) ... but that would suggest no focus at all, right? When Joshie gets focus on something, he is unmoveable... like, sure, he loses focus like most kids (think the dog ... pant pant :RABBIT: pant pant :RABBIT
... But when he finds something intriguing, he has unbelievable focus ... You can't get him away from it. So it can't be that, right?
Oh ... I don't know. What do I do, guys? What options do I have to try and settle this brilliant little fella and get him to behave at school? (and when we're out, and at home)
When I asked him about his apparent boredom, he shrugged and told me that he already knows what they're teaching.
I am going to try and speak with the teacher tomorrow to ask what she suggests and why she wouldn't notify me when Josh is being a shit ... and then just give a cryptic message of "he has no friends" on a random day...
This is disjointed, I know, but I am just a freaking mess right now. My heart breaks for my little man ... he knows he is disliked and it hurts him... What hurts him, hurts me ... but I know I can't demand that kids be forced to like him.
Sigghhhhhhh
Any advice?
Please, mums, help me out here...
Thankee
SJ
__________________
Sighhh
Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.
Posted by Springie on 20-05-2010 at 22:38:
SJ, does he have trouble socializing?
Does he have a , "My way or the highway" attitude when he is playing with his friends?
How is he with transitions?
Does he adapt easily to change?
Does he see things in black and white (in other words...rules are rules...there is no gray area)?
Does he lose his temper easily?
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Posted by UnpublishedWriter on 20-05-2010 at 22:44:
You probably should have your son tested. Then you will know whether or not he has some sort of problem and figure out what to do about it.
Can't advise you about the teachers, though. My kids go 'meow.'
__________________
Benefits, not features; benefits, not features
Posted by amethyst on 20-05-2010 at 22:57:
SJ, you are good to be concerned, but I think that from what I am hearing from you, the school is mostly to blame, but I will try to highlight a few things that caught my eye:
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Actually, that can be ADD/ADHD. Some children lack focus, others hyperfocus on one thing, and then others seeming lack focus and are focusing on everything. Some will exhibit all three depending upon the day, time of day, where they are at, etc.
If you have a family history, or if Flash does, talk to family members that you know are affected and see how it affects them and things to look for in Joshie.
Remember, though, like Autism this is a spectrum disorder (even if the DSM doesn't have it listed as such) it will affect people differently and to varying degrees.
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I'm not trying to scare you, but I saw the same thing with my oldest, Billy, who has been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrom after being misdiagnosed with ADD/ADHD and Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
Things to look for in this is a lack of age appropriate social skills and non-understanding of non-verbal language queues. Or if he starts to have more fun with imaginary friends, stuffed animals, real animals and more empathy for them than for people he knows.
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He's bored at school! He's not being challenged enough and things are too easy. Or, but not likely from what you've said, things are too hard, he's giving up, and reacting out of boredom.
The best way to deal with this is request a parent-teacher conference so that you can discuss his growth as a student and your concerns for both his academic and social behaviors.
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Set firm but reachable behavior expectations, make sure that you and Flash both model the expected behavior (most children mimic behaviors they have seen, look for the source: home*, school, movies, friends), and he has clear age appropriate consequences. For time-outs from anything, 1 minute per year of age is a good guideline. Five minutes is an eternity to a five year old.
5. Talk with your pediatrician! Talk with the parents have Joshie's older friends! They may have seen things that you and Flash may have missed. Beware, some professionals will discount the parents appraisal of their child (Don't we all raise brilliant, perfect children?)
*I'm not saying that you and Flash are violent, foul-mouthed people. But, children will notice our behaviors that we are not even conscious of (both Rick and I have learned this the hard way). When Joshie swears, does he use the words that you and Flash use either consciously or not or words that make you wonder were did he learn that? Maybe the older children like to wrestle?
I know that my answer looks daunting, unfortunately there could be any number of possible causes and solutions and finding the right solution will be a matter of trial and error. The one thing that I know will at least for the short term is make sure that he has the same expectations at home, school, and when out with family or friends. Make sure your SiL follows the same consequences that you would and that school behaviors not only have a school consequence but also a home one, too.
__________________
Perspective Alters Reality
Posted by Madilayn on 20-05-2010 at 23:01:
Oh SJ! Oh babe!! * huggles* I thought Joshie had gotten over his bolshie phase.
It sounds definitely like Joshie is gifted - and as our one and only Springie is our specialist in this area she's probably the best to advise.
However- there is absolutely NO excuse for the teachers not telling you of any problems. I mean, you woudl have had the same as me, that when you did ANYTHING wrong at school, not only did you get the dreaded note sent home, but mum also got a phone call about her shit of a child.
It sounds like he's taking his frustrations and boredom from school out at home - whcih it's up to you to nip in the bud and teach that such behaviour is not aceptable in any way shape or form.
Don't threaten him - just tell him what will happen if he does the wrong thing. When he does it, don't say anything, just take the action you told him of. It shows him that you do mean what you said.
The bullying worries me - but if it comes out of boredom and a reaction to being actively disliked by other children, then there's a reason behind it. Doesn't make it acceptable though.
Honestly - it souds like he needs a new school. If he shows up as in the gifted range, then you need to find a school that is sympathetic about that.
Joshie sounds like he is more mature than other kids his age, so actually may benefit from skipping a grade or so and being put with kids who are mentally on the same level as him.
Lots of huggles, babe.
__________________
"When I'm old, I don't want them to say of me, "She's so charming." I want them to say, "Be careful, I think she's armed." -G. Stoddart
Posted by amethyst on 20-05-2010 at 23:22:
SJ, you definitely have a good bunch of resources here. However, remember, we have to deal with generalizations because we've never meet Joshie. What you really need to do is try to find professionals in your area to assess him for educational, behavioral, and mental health needs. It will be a time consuming process, but it will be worth it.
Changing schools could work short-term, but may not be a long term solution.
Medicines correct behaviors but do not always address the causes unless there is a diagnosed imbalance.
Just now that we are here for you. If you're not sure what the professionals are telling you, ask us. I've seen at as a family observer, as a parent, and as a Gen Ed teacher and classroom aide. Springie and TJ are also teachers. Although, Special Education laws very from state to state and country to country, we can tell you if something seems kosher or henkie.
__________________
Perspective Alters Reality
Posted by RIgirl on 20-05-2010 at 23:32:
Does Josh truly want to make friends and can't? Or is it that the other kids are just blocking him out? Did the kids in his class all know each other beforehand or did everyone start out the same way?
He's an only child, right? Has he spent most of his life surrounded by adults? I know you said he's friends with older kids, but in his day-to-day life, outside of school, does he play with kids his age? I ask this because it sounds like he's having a bad reaction from considering himself as an adult to suddenly being thrown in with, well, kids. Being so young, he probably wouldn't know how to deal with it, so it's possible he's acting out -- and getting the attention he wants from adults.
I'm saying all of this because, as an only child myself, I remember it being very hard for me to transition from a household where I was the youngest (but considered myself just a short adult) in a quiet environment to being forced in a roomful of kids. It was loud, it was terrifying, but instead of acting out, I threw up just about every day. One day, I even broke down in tears because I just wanted to go home. I was six and couldn't take it. I made friends, but not well. I didn't "get" the other kids and they didn't understand me -- sometimes literally. I spoke like an adult and loved words -- the longer the better. Yeah, I was so not popular.
I'm not a parent, but I do have my MS in communicative disorders and the best advice that I can get you is this -- take Josh to be checked out by a speech pathologist/behaviorist, if only for your own peace of mind. They can do tests to determine if the problem is a social one, a pathological one (like Amethyst mentioned), or if he is just truly gifted and needs to be in a different environment that can meet his needs so that he doesn't have to act out. Every child is different, and sometimes adjustments have to be made so that the child can reach his full potential.
__________________
"It is a rare man that is taken for what he truly is...We are not always what we seem, and hardly ever what we dream...." Peter S. Beagle
Posted by Garnet on 20-05-2010 at 23:38:
SJ, I really don't have much to add. Just wanted to give you hugs and and commend you for wanting to do the right thing for Josh. I think what Amethyst said makes a lot of sense. The same phraises she noted were the ones that jumped out at me too. Most of my friends either have gifted or autistic kids, or both, and I have seen some of the same behaviors in them. I would say talk to the teachers and have him tested. Just my two-cents-worth.
Posted by Springie on 21-05-2010 at 00:12:
A child can be both autistic (Asperger's) and gifted at the same time. I have two spectacular examples in my own classroom this year. I don't know what their IQ's are, but one of them is definitely a genius. The other has Asperger's, is gifted and also has a learning disability. He is quite quirky, but a great kid.
From what you've described, Josh definitely sounds "gifted". He completes tasks quickly and correctly, gets bored...
Does he have a genuine love for learning? Does he ask a lot of questions? Does he seem mature for his age? Is he an independent worker (doesn't need much help?) Does he prefer to work alone on tasks?
and...just so you know...it is typical for a gifted child to have trouble socially. Because they think differently (out of the box) they often find it hard to "fit in" or to work cooperatively in groups. I have regular class meetings with my students to talk about those issues.
I highly recommend the Hoagies gifted site...tons of info including how to identify signs of "gifted-ness".
Hoagie's
Also, there are a lot of great sites out there that explain Asperger's Syndrome. It really seems like an epidemic. Now I am hearing that 1 in 90 children are diagnosed with it (most are boys).
[URL=http://kidshealth.org/parent/medical/brain/asperger.html
Asperger's Syndrome[/URL]
Asperger's Characteristics Checklist
This may or may not describe Joshie...but I thought I'd give you the info so you can check it all out and see. I know all of this may be overwhelming to you!
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Amethyst, that is EXACTLY what happened with my son...he was placed in an ED (emotionally disturbed) classroom by mistake for a couple of years. He started having problems at age three, and it took us a few years to figure out exactly what was going on with him.
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Posted by UnpublishedWriter on 21-05-2010 at 00:17:
A friend of mine took her daughter to be tested (many years ago), and discovered her kid was ADHD. The girl still drove her nuts, but now she knew why, and could help her deal with things.
__________________
Benefits, not features; benefits, not features
Posted by Madilayn on 21-05-2010 at 00:18:
I suppose it all comes down to getting a correct diagnosis early means that any problems can be solved before they become bigger - and also easier to put in train the correct educational needs as well.
My brother is ADHD, but it was many years before he ws diagnosed properly.
He was actually part of a major Univerity of Queensland study during the 1970's (he was born in 1969) and 80's when ADHD was being recognised.
He has refused to take drugs for it since he was about 13 or so - mostly becuse he couldn;t be bothered remembering taking them. But he's a real pain to be around becuase at the slightest frustration he completely flies off the handle.
Suppose it just goes to show that these problems never do really go away, but the whole family as well as the sufferer have to learn how to live with them.
__________________
"When I'm old, I don't want them to say of me, "She's so charming." I want them to say, "Be careful, I think she's armed." -G. Stoddart
Posted by Springie on 21-05-2010 at 00:21:
This is a fabulous chart showing the signs of gifted behavior...
gifted chart
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Posted by Transmute Jun on 21-05-2010 at 01:13:
You've gotten a lot of good advice here, SJ, but I would definitely go with what Amethyst said and have specialists look at him. I don't know how it works in T.O., but here the school district will do it, even if the child isn't school age yet.
Another thing I would suggest (since you're hearing about all of this third hand) is that you spend a day watching him. See if you can take a day from work and accompany him to school. Watch how he behaves, and how he deals with the other kids. Then you will have a much clearer picture of what he's doing, and perhaps a better idea of how to deal with it.
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Posted by Firebird on 21-05-2010 at 02:39:
Sj you have my sympathies and I hope you manage to resolve this.
My son is not from teh gifted side of things he has moderate learning difficulties and I had to foght tooth and nail to get the help he needed, I do hope it is easier there. You have been given brilliant advise by the other ladies and I have nothing else to suggest. I do wish you well and hope this is resolved quickly for you all.
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Like the Phoenix I rise from the fire. Beware all who try to tame me, you may get burned 
Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 21-05-2010 at 02:59:
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Hey Springie ... To answer your questions in order:
Socializing isn't a problem, really. He does tend to associate more with adults than children as he is immediately comfortable with them. With kids he will generally cling toghtly to my legs and hide until he can size up the situation. Once he gets a feel for the others he immediately seems to be able to adapt to their age groups and mingle quite well and eagerly. Given the choice, he's chatting with the adults.
My way or highway? Sort of. He is a commander. He will run the playing field and control the play. Even the older kids seem to fall to his command and do whatever he wants them to do. He's not keen on playing a different game, but will do it ... only to ultimately have a great time of it.
Now I feel stupid with the transisitons one. I am not sure what you mean with that, so I can't honestly answer it.
Adaptation. He doesn't like change. It bothers him when there is a change in plans or the settings change. He will get upset and tantrum, but will adapt to it rather swiftly.
Rules being black or white?. He is a loophole king so I would have to say no. He is the type to question the answer, question the reasoning, tear apart the rule and find a way around it. He is a prime negotiator, and will often offer up a bargain in order to get what he wants.
Temper? OH HELL YES!! A fiery temper and bullheadedness that just tends to make any situation much, much, much worse than it was iniitally.
He has heightened emotions across the board actually. There is no middle ground. What he feels he damn well FEELS ... It can be scary sometimes to see how deeply the little fella will emote.
Ladies, the information you have provided me with is simply amazing. It's not until I really analyze it that I can understand that his behavior is not just "kid being kid" ...
He is incredibly bored at school. I sit with him a lot and work though things with him where I can. He has no interest in homework. I figured it was laziness, but it seems he is just thinking it's beneath him. When the homework asked for him to fill in the blanks for the alphabet, he scribbled on it, pulled out a new paper and started to do cursive lettering. He then pointed out the difference between Flash and I when we write cursive, and noted that some letters are simply taught differently in Australia as they are in Canada.
Basic shapes was another one, and he screwed it up and started listing off all of the shapes, right up to the twelve sided shape, and then moved into the 3D shapes.
He didn't like the book that the teacher had sent home with him, so he grabbed the manual for the television and started to read that instead. He now knows everything there is to know about our TV and even how to program the remote and trouble shoot it.
I have a good relationship with our UPS pickup guy, who adores Josh. He is always giving Joshie his computerized clipboard thingie to play with, and without instruction, the lad knows how to use it. Yesterday, Roger (the UPS guy) received a message from HO on it, Josh navigated to it and then read it out to him.
I figured the giftedness thing didn't apply to him, as they state in their info that phorographic memory is not a trait. Well Josh has one. He can watch a dance routine on the TV and immediately has it. Songs, I sing to him occasionally when I am getting him to sleep, and these songs are not taught at school, yet Josh can pick up the lyrics in only one or two times of me singing it to him. He'll correct me if I try to change the lyrics.
There is nothing in this world more adorable than a five year old singing along to the Killers in the back seat of the truck ... awesome ... Oh and Shakira. He loves her. Objection being his fav song. In the beginning of the film clip there is a tango dance ... Josh knows it and will always dance the tango when the song starts... He loves to dance, but won't agree to dance classes.
And he has a wonderful little singing voice!
Pitch perfect? Yes. His favourite game on WII is WII Music ... he loves the pitch games and does far better than I do at it.
Problem solving and logic? Yes. Even his teacher is amazed at his ability to find patterns in everyday things ... and he isn't shy to make sure you know it's there.
I looked at the gifted chart you linked to, Springie. Joshie fits into about 95% of the categories.
I did ask about whether or not the TDSB would test him, but was told that they don't do that until grade 5 ... by then he will be labelled a troublemaker, not a gifted kid ... to get testing on our own will cost us $3500 ... and I simply don't have those funds.
I will intently read every link you have provided me with and see what I can do. I will chat to his teacher tomorrow and find out what is going on. Joshie was heartbroken this evening when I asked about his friends. He said: "Mommy. I'm all alone at school. I either sit and play by myself or with [teacher's name]." It hurt me to see his pained little expression and the tears in his little eyes. He snuggled into me and said: "You're my best friend, Mommy. You and Daddy."
But ... shit ... I don't get it. When I take him to the playground, he ALWAYS ends up immediately making friends and playing with them. Little girls swarm him. Every single time he goes out, a little girl will latch onto him and call him her boyfriend. They cry when I have to take him home... He is at hand holding with them within a few minutes of meeting them. And even the boys he gets along with.
Other parents are always stunned at it as we sit and watch them play. He is polite, he is vibrant, he knows that girls always go first and pushing is rude ...
So I don't get why he's struggling so hard at school... I really don't.
Is it because he gets disruptive that the other children then dislike him for it?
Sighhhhh .... I'll see how my chat with his teacher goes tomorrow. If work will let me out early enough, I'll arrange a sit down with her rather than a chat over the phone.
I'll keep you posted... If you think of anything else, I am all ears.
Thanks again ... much appreciated.
__________________
Sighhh
Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.
Posted by amethyst on 21-05-2010 at 04:10:
SJ, from what you've just described I would definitely look at High Functioning Autism/Asperger's Syndrome first (please note that is not a medical diagnosis, just a starting point) with your pediatrician. If you health insurance can, see if you can get a referral to a behavioral pediatrician they have training in both pediatrics and behavioral psychology.
Also, check on Canadian and provincial disability laws. If you can get a medical diagnosis of a disorder that affect learning, the school may be required to test regardless of age. Also read your ed code, especially those regarding special ed. School district like to offer as little as possible so they avoid testing unless the parents push. The best defense against this is to know your rights and know the laws.
Springie, the misdiagnosis for Billy resulted in so many misplacements that he did not get to the proper placement until it was too late. I just had what will hopefully be his last IEP this morning. He is taking the high school proficiency exam this summer so that he will at least have the equivilancy, otherwise he will just walk out of school at the age of 18. For the record I hate the "Emotionally Disturbed" classification, it is pejorative and ignorant; it really should be Emotionally Disabled.
UW, you are so right about getting the proper diagnosis early. Unfortunately at early ages so many of these disorders mimic each other, and the pronounce behaviors often don't show up until the child is older. Also, the DSM can be a very restrictive document. It is intended to be a guide for mental health practitioners, however, the insurance companies use it as the end all and be all of diagnosis. Spectrum disorders (Autism/Asperger's, ADD/ADHD, Bi-polar disorder, etc) react differently on different people, there are character traits that can guide us in the right direction, but so often they can be blurred.
__________________
Perspective Alters Reality
Posted by lyon on 21-05-2010 at 04:25:
This will sound a little odd but ... have you considered enrolling him in a martial art?
i say this because my husband runs a couple of judo schools and has a number of children in his classes with ADD/ADHD and autism. Some of them he's taught for years, from children into their teens now and the effect of a disciplined, rule-driven, competitive/cooperative environment is astounding. most of the children have been able to come off their medications entirely - the physical and mental focus needed by a martial art often helps them regain a sense of control and accomplishment that they don't or can't get anywhere else.
they expend energy (in the case of judo, bucketloads of it), they work towards goals, they train for competitions, learn that losing is often more important than winning and at the end of the day, they teach it to the newer ones coming in, to help out "sensei".
... my $0.02 canadian.
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Trample the weak. Hurdle the dead.
Posted by green on 21-05-2010 at 07:21:
SJ - you have far more info here than I can add to, so I'll keep my comments to one.
Josh is very lucky to have a mum like you!
You obviously encourage him not only to shine, but to be open and honest. Whatever happens, whatever he is finally diagnosed as/with, it will be thanks to you that he will be able to deal with it.
That's not to say the outcome will be bad, but it will require determination and work on yours and his part so he can fulfil his potential - just as it is for all children. Having such an open and supportive relationship with you will be the catalyst for that to happen.
I have my fingers crossed for you, hun! The sooner you can find out what's going on, the better it is.
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Exaggeration misleads the credulous and offends the perceptive. ~Eliza Cook
Posted by Springie on 21-05-2010 at 09:57:
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I'm with you on that, Amethyst. It sounds like they are describing animals! Another term they use around here is BD- Behavioral Disorder, I like that one a little better.
Amethyst, it sounds like you've been through a lot!
I'm glad Billy will be getting his equivalency! Sorry, SJ! I was using teacher terms again! "Transitions" means a change in lessons. For example, he might be working on a picture, and the teacher says it is time to put it away and pull out his workbook for Math...
Yes, it definitely sounds like he is highly gifted... I would talk to his teacher face to face and ask for testing through the school. Ask them about Aspberger's Syndrome, too. If he doesn't have it, then it will help to put your mind at ease. If he does, then you are getting a great jump start in helping him socially/emotionally.
My son, Evan, has come a long way since the age of three. I'm thankful that we caught it quickly.
Like Amethyst said, I would imagine that your insurance would cover any outside testing (not sure what coverage you have), but the school system can give you an amazing amount of information and help if you have him tested.
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Posted by Springie on 21-05-2010 at 10:05:
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These are two of my son's major problem areas...especially the temper/ feelings...
From what you've explained, my initial thoughts are that it's possible he is either exceptionally gifted (extremely high IQ) or that he is twice-exceptional, with both Asperger's and highly gifted.
Of course, I am no doctor...I haven't even met little Joshie in person...and I am just going by what I'm reading. So I could be off...take me with a grain of salt!
I'll be very interested to hear what the teacher has to say...and if you end up having him tested. Let me just say that testing is VERY important. The sooner you have it done the better!
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