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Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 12-12-2009 at 02:57:

Question for the Teachers

Hiya groovy kats...

I need some advice from the teachers we have on the board.

After a recent parent teacher meeting, Joshies teacher hinted that Joshie is a gifted child. Okay, the words actually left her lips, but she quickly caught herself as apparently they aren't allowed to suggest that in JK.

Now this certainly explains much of the behavioural problems we seem to have with him... Amongst other things.

However, as he is only in jr Kindergarten, the school system will not really touch upon that, nor test him, as they feel that the children need to simply enjoy all kindergarten has to offer rather than attempt to harness any hunger for learning the little monkey has.

This is understandable, and I really don't wish to suddenly thrust the little man into anything heavy too early on.

However ... How can I continue to keep this little man stimulated and try to correct the continual challenge to authority, the curiosity, and then to address the myriad of provocative questions that sometimes I cannot answer? I mean... when you quiz him, Joshie doesn't just give you the answer ... he questions the damn answer! He doesn't answer the questions -- he asks them... sighhhhh

And how can we keep him in check at school and home? The poor little man is having difficulties making friends because, although loveable, he finds conversing with other children ... to use the treacher's words: "Very ho-hum and boring". His learning is so fast that he only ever needs to be told once, and therefore bores of the repetition required by the other kids and begins to play up.

He has only one friend in class, and apparently they've had a falling out. Josh is upset this evening because another of the kids is banning him from talking to his little girlfriend... He is so upset, doesn't understand why, and feels he needs to apologise to her but doesn't know the reason... He is, as he said to me tonight, alone in class. His teacher is really his only friend right now...

The teacher said that when she assessed his reading level in October, he was at a level 6 (I have no idea what that means), and she says he is at a higher level now... He writes words and numbers on the whiteboard and analyses his surroundings to create stories and notes on the board. When he plays with the construction kits, he builds strong and rigid structures with supported beams and arms...

She actually gushed that Josh had engineered special supports to allow the extra additions. She said she actually took a photo of it because she was so surprised. His problem solving skills are so sharp, that she can't seem to be able to stump him. She tries, in order to quiet him as he bothers her, but he smirks and counters her challenge enough to simply stun her.

She said that his adult conversational skills are awesome, but he has difficulties with the other kids in the class. She said that there are days she'd just love to sit across the table from him, hand him a hot chocolate and just talk...

So all that said ... ladies, what do I do here? How can I be a responsible Mum and help him to harness his hunger for research and learning, yet still let him be a kid? Do Flash and I simply try to struggle through all of these temper tantrums, and destruction through boredom, to let him be a kid? (I mean, he's only 4 years old) Or should I pick up the harder books and help him through learning everything? He's already been reading the books supposedly for grade one children, so do I want to step it up further than that? Will that only prove to bore him further in class, but make home life more bearable.

Any advice would be appreciated here. I mean, I don't want him alienating himself further from the other kids, but I would really love to let him learn all that he wants to ...

God, I have visions of Big Bang Theory's Sheldon in this little guy... LOL!

So what do you think? Any suggestions?

Thankee

SJ

__________________

Sighhh

Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.

Posted by green on 12-12-2009 at 05:37:

You are in a pickle, SJ. An advanced child may be the polar opposite of one with major learning difficulties, but the challenge for parents and teachers is the same. To keep them engaged. Once they lose their enthusiasm in the task it is nearly impossible to regain it.

My belief is you teach the child, not the class. Although it is damn difficult to live by that when you have 30 pairs of eyes staring at you in various states of comprehension.

Let your son read harder books. Keeping his love of reading is essential. It will also provide an outlet for the teacher - she or he will be able to say 'finished already? why don't you sit quietly and read while the others finish..' Not ideal, but better than the disruptiveness of a child completely bored out of their skull.
I was reading Agatha Christie novels at the age of 8. It was accepted by my grade 4 teacher, so you should have no problem with your son's should he be reading above his age level.

How's his maths? If simple addition and subtraction pose no problem, introduce him to multiplication. The good thing about maths is that it can get harder and more challenging with the student. Generally speaking the basics aren't something that need to involve the whole class. He already seems to have a natural bent towards structural engineering, maths can only excite him further.

It's been my experience that if you can keep them engaged, all children are a lot less inclined to throw temper tantrums. And a happy child is more likely to listen when you explain that the things he finds so easy are difficult for others so he will need to be understanding, compassionate and patient. Not to mention that little talk about challenging authority - when it's appropriate and when it's not...

Just remember, if a question is asked, it's because an answer is wanted. If you can't answer it because you don't know, then be honest. Presto! A challenge for the little man to research and solve on his own, with your help, of course Wink

Have you considered involving him music? Music is based on mathematic scales. It has the side benefit of being an emotional outlet. Something that might be needed a little later in life...

Yes, he has outstripped his peers in being able to express himself. But they will eventually catch up. This is probably the area I would be most concerned about. Friends are so integral to a child's development, but it will take time...

The best situation I saw while teaching was during my very first practical. 3 kids all tested off the charts and 1 who was barely allowed into mainstream schooling. As a quartet they were unstoppable. Not because the 3 would prop up the learning of the fourth, but because he made them slow down. He got them to explain their ideas until he understood them and could be involved in the activity.
He also had the only common sense among the group. While the 3 of them were discussing the physics behind putting up a tent, he did it. And their's was the only one that didn't fall down overnight.
He also made the best pancakes I have ever tasted...

My point is this. While these kids were 11/12 years old when I met them, they all faced the same challenge. 3 understood far too much when they were younger, 1 didn't understand a damn thing. To keep them engaged would have been so challenging for their parents and teachers... However, back to friendship - it may have taken them a while to find each other, but they did. Your son will do the same. The road may be bumpy. Scratch that. The road WILL be bumpy, but you and your son will get through it. These kids had great parents who developed their sons into fine young men who could communicate on any level to any one. It just took time. And patience - a lot of patience...

__________________
Exaggeration misleads the credulous and offends the perceptive. ~Eliza Cook

Posted by Springie on 12-12-2009 at 11:52:

Ahhh...SJ...I am finishing up my endorsement in gifted learning, and I teach a class full of them. I'd say that you should expect the teachers to keep him challenged, so that the negative behaviors decrease. That doesn't mean that they will disappear altogether. I have some children who have better behavior this year (according to their parents- because they are more challenged), and others who are a little more "active".

Teachers who teach gifted learners must understand that sometimes children have trouble socializing because they are different from their peers. However, they can and will find friends that understand them. It also helps to teach some social skills.I have sessions in my class devoted to gifted learners social problems and how to overcome them. I would suggest having Josh do some extracurricular activities like sports, scouts (do they have boy scouts in Canada?), music lessons or something else that interests him.

And, by all means, give him every opportunity to grow and learn at home, too. Challenge him with higher level books, and give him a variety of experiences to draw on when he is in school.

Gifted learners can be a challenge, but you will be astounded at the things you see in the future. What a blessing to have a child who loves learning!

__________________

There is no problem that cannot be solved with time, patience, and a judicious amount of high explosives.

Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 12-12-2009 at 14:19:

Thanks, ladies... I appreciate your help on this.

For the most part I kind-of already had thought of all you said, but I really needed some ... how do you say it... encouragement from you to know that I am doing the right thing.

Our family doctor has been trying to convince us to put him in piano classes for the past two years. He's been watching Josh with fascination, and when he started writing his own name at 2 and was constantly humming little tunes to himself as we waited, he said that music would be the best outlet for him to challenge his mind.

And Joshie is fascinated by musical instruments... I just thought he may have been too young to start... I mean his little fingers couldn't manage it ... even on a little keyboard.

His teacher did start sending him home with more advanced books. She wrote me a note in his little homework bag stating that he was ready for the more advanced books and encouraged us to read them to him ... when I spoke with her at the interview about it, she was unsurprised to learn that it was he reading them to us.

Joshie and I chatted this morning over a Grade 1 math book (those Beaver Books things at the Dollar store are sensational!! I cannot get enough of them to work with my little man on!!)... and he said to me that his teacher is now sitting him with other kids and letting him read stories to them. He said that she is encouraging him to read out loud to the other kids and he says that he loves it.

He wants to help out the teacher -- as she indicated to us -- so this is something he really enjoys.

It seems that his behaviour in class is much, much better than it is at home. While he does play up, it is not to the extreme that it is at home. So his teacher deserves massive kudos for identifying his gift and utilizing it as she does. She did tell me that he is an absolute joy to have around her as he is a laugh a minute. She says he says the most profound things, and whenever the three of them (she, her TA and a high school co-ed student) hear something surprisingly brilliant from the group, that they all look at each other, smile and chorus "That's Joshua"..

He is very outspoken and narcissistic (I spelled that wrong, didn't I?) enough that he draws everyone into his own pride and excitement. It is just his intense sensitivity that is his downfall sometimes. He gets upset if he thinks someone else is sad, or if the atmosphere is uneasy... He gets more upset if he thinks someone is unhappy with him.

My MIL wants us to stop giving him big kudos for good behaviour and achievements, as she feels that it only encourages bad behaviour ... but I don't want to ignore it when he uses his manners, does something good or whatnot ... I get excited when he learns something new and love to sit with him to discuss his new discovery... For the most part it is a renewed discovery for me too, and I love learning as much as he does.

I am more scientific than he is ... and I am dyyyyyyyying to go out and get him a microscope and mini-lab to play with him ... I know, I know, I have to wait a couple more years until I pull him into my love... But anyway, the information he retains, and his thrill in explaining it to us is a discovery all in it's own to me.

He's teaching me so many new and wonderful things that I feel like a kid myself. He discovered wasps and hornets through a school show and tell and did some research to tell me how they construct their nests and things. I'd never really even thought about it before, and found fascination in hearing him explain it to me.

He and I always watch nature shows and the discovery channel (Flash loves it all too so there's never a fight for the TV when National Geographic comes on)... I swear that sometimes just listening to him talk is like watching Sir David Attenborough himself... With a cutesy little munchkin voice of course .. LOL

I got him a kid's measuring tape yesterday, so he is currently taking measurements of everything in the room. He sneaky purchased the "Carpenters Tool" application for my iPod last week and so now is measuring everything, making sure things are level, and is taking notes... LOL

Oh and he programmed my new cellphone for me too. He has proudly set all of my ring tones, my flip sounds, set it to ring and vibrate, as well as put a photo of himself as my wallpaper.. Now he wants to teach me how to put in new phone numbers for all of our friends ... HAHA ... Gee, I don't need the manual, do I? Good thing, because apparently cellphones no longer come with such things... dammit.

Springie, you mentioned that I will be astounded by things in the future ... I'm really already there ... if it get's better than this, then I cannot wait.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will speak to our doc about the piano and music classes. His wife is one of Ontario's recognized music instructors, so perhaps she can lead us into the right direction with it.

It will be a good start -- an expensive start -- but it is beautifully beneficial to us all. I love classical music, and the piano in general, so I would love to see if he could create with instruments to beautiful tunes he hums when he's working on something.

Perhaps I should also arrange a little sitdown with the teacher to discuss her ideas too. The P/T interview was only supposed to be ten mins (but she kept talking for half an hour) and there were other parents waiting... I couldn't really seek out her suggestions at that time.

But thank you so much for your suggestions ... I will take them all!!

If you have any more, I am all ears!! This is a talent I truly want to harness. I never had the opportunites he has right now, so I was wasted at school. I don't want him falling into the same trap I did.

Huggies

SJ

__________________

Sighhh

Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.

Posted by green on 12-12-2009 at 16:29:

Pffffft to your MIL. sorry, but OMG! A recognised and very much encouraged behavioural control tool for teachers in Australia is something called 'positive re-enforcement'.

You mentioned Big Bang Theory. Can you remember the episode when Sheldon controlled Penny's behaviour? Every time she behaved the way he wanted ie., taking phone calls out into the hall, not talking in a high pitched voice etc, he would reward her with a chocolate from a box. He was using this methodology. A small, but pleasurable reward for behaving to HIS specifications. The main idea is to be subtle with what you're doing.

For a child of your son's age a simple star chart working towards a reward might be very effective. Part of the involvement for him would be the reward of sticking the star on the chart. Re-enforced with your positive attention for the behaviour that earned him the star. Don't go overboard because that could cause issues later, but a simple 'you really deserve that for doing.....' can go a long way with a child. You don't even need to reward the same behaviours all the time, or getting those stars will become too easy. Make it random, therefore more good behaviour will have to be on show to guarantee a star. And the final reward doesn't have to be that big. A trip to MacDonald's for some nuggets and time in the playground for example. A treat, not a new computer, if you get my drift.

As for the negative behaviour. Well, I can think of two ways to deal with that. A consequence - time in the naughty corner with a discussion of why he's there... I hate to say this, but if he's sensitive you can use a mild form of blackmail. Explain that him yelling at you made you sad (not angry) because you didn't do anything wrong and didn't deserve it. The bonus with a sensitive child is they understand how upset you can get because someone didn't think before speaking. Personally, I hate guilt trips. My mother used them well but sparingly. They were the ultimate punishment, worse than a tap across our butts. I dare say that I learned more from feeling horrible about what I had done than I ever did from being smacked. But had I been overexposed to feeling guilty then it would have lost its effectiveness.

The second way is to ignore it - if you can. Obviously if it is unsafe or just downright nasty behaviour then you HAVE to do something about it. If it is something that is mildly annoying and you would only prefer he didn't do, then don't watch him do it. Ignore him, disconnect, walk away. He gets attention when he is doing good things, none if he isn't. Kids love attention and will often jump through hoops to get it. Some of the worst behavioural issues I have seen have been with children who were pretty much ignored by their parents - all the time. Good behaviour achieved nothing. Bad behaviour may have ended in a whack, but it got their parent's attention, even for just a moment....

By the sound of it you are doing all the right things to keep him engaged and challenged. Personally I see no problem with getting Josh that microscope. My dad had one from long before I was born and I know I couldn't have been any older than he is when I first looked at my hair under it. And then the cat's. Just getting the damn thing from the furball was an education! I know now that I could have just collected a sample from his bed, but at the time it was IMPORTANT that it came straight from the cat, okay?

__________________
Exaggeration misleads the credulous and offends the perceptive. ~Eliza Cook

Posted by Becky Rock on 13-12-2009 at 18:13:

Hi SJ.

I know what you're going through.

We were told our son Alex was 'gifted' when he was 5. We'd already noticed things, like the fact he was a very good reader at 4, loved educational television and talked to you like a little adult.

Our first hint was while we were in Germany when he was 4. English TV was limited to the military channels. He'd watched two shows: a show about how engineers were shoring up older buildings in Los Angeles against earthquakes and a show about the Hong King airport that was built on a manmade island in the bay that was sinking. He put two and two together and drew a diagram applying the method used in Los Anegles to shore up the sinking island and asked us to contact the Hing Kong airport to get an address to send his plan to.

We registered him to attend kindergarten in one of Frankfurt's two International Schools. At that school, they test the kids to determine where to place them. Alex testing out of Kindegarten, straight into first grade. We talked to the head first grade teacher, the proncipal and the guidance councelor. That's when Alex got the 'gifted' logo. Thery assured us he would be bored to death in Kindergarten and needed a more challenging cirriculum, so our barely 5 year old went to first grade.

When we returned to the US, we talked to the school about whether to place him in 1st or 2nd grade. He'd had trouble with the other kids in Germany, since he was so much younger. The cirriculum in Germany only consisted of math, English (it was a British school), German, music, and phys ed. If he went into 2nd, he'd be behind on some American centered subjects.

We ended up with him in 1st and he was bored to death. He'd finish his work quickly and then wander the class, disturbing the other students. We even had a few instances of his correcting the teacher - and the sad part was he was right.

We finally convinced the school to place him in the next class for math and English and he excelled at that, but was still bored otherwise.

We then found out our county had a program for gifted kids, but it didn't start until 3rd grade. They gave us some ideas to keep Alex rolling.

We got him involved in Tae Kwon Do. He had to practice in addition to taking classes, so it kept him physically busy. He loves to read and by that time had tested to the 8th grade level, so we made many trips to the books tore and library. I had to screen everything to make sure it wasn't too old for him.He loved to build things so we bought lots of Lego kits.

My AOL is acting up and keeps kicking me out. I'll add more in another note ASAP.

__________________
I'm writing a book. I've got the page numbers so far...

Posted by Becky Rock on 13-12-2009 at 18:50:

I'm back.

We basically had to come up with a way to keep Alex engaged. We sent books to school with him that he was to read when he was done with his work rather than wander the class. The teacher asked him to work with the kids who were having trouble.

We enrolled him in the gifted program in 3rd grade, which consisted of him spending one day a week at another school with other gifted kids in a class called Spectrum. He still had to complete his normal 5 day cirriculum but also had the Spectrum work. He had no trouble keeping up, but being gone a day a week made him stand out from the other kids, both in his mind and theirs.

He'd never had a lot of friends. He kept out growing them. He's an only child, so that added to the sense of aloneness.

He decided he wanted to do more than just TKD, so we encouraged it. He started playing basketball. He's okay, but not great. He then started flag football and excels at it. Next was baseball. He's done great with that, too. In the middle of all that, he got his second degree blackbelt in TKD and decided that was as far as he wanted to go, for now.

The sports got him working with other boys, kept him engaged in relationships. He's a good team player and his teammates recognize that. He sees them in school and doesn't feel as alone. They have something in common that has nothing to do with his being ahead of them in school.

Its been hard. Last year, in 6th grade, he kept getting in trouble for not doing his homework. His arguement was homework was for the kids who needed the practice. The teachers wanted him to do it to prepare for tests. Without it, he'd get high As on his tests, so it just wasn't important to him. The teachers finally started docking his grades to make their point. His grades are important to him. We finally had to make a deal that if we didn't get anymore missed homework reports, we'd take him to a US Navy football game in the fall. We didn't get anymore reports and he got his game.

This year, he's in 7th grade taking 2 high school classes: Algebra and Latin, in addition to his other 'honors' classes. He had great grades his first quarter. My husband and I are constantly amazed by him. We didn't have Algebra or a language until we were freshmans and sophmores. He's also in band, playing drums.

Our biggest problem at home has been he procrastinates abouty everything. We still have to stand over him to get him to do his homework. We had to set up more rerwards for some things. We have to keep him busy.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know. Your son will try your patence and amaze you all in the same breath. He'll challenge his teachers and ask questions you're not prepared to begin to answer. He's a kid with the mind of someone older, but he's still a kid needing guidance.

My hat's off to you.

__________________
I'm writing a book. I've got the page numbers so far...

Posted by Ebonyswanne on 13-12-2009 at 22:00:

This is a fantastic thread! I'm learning a lot from what you all are saying here when it comes to kids and learning.

My youngest daughter is only 20 months and she has the attention span of a 3yr old. She will watch and learn fast when shownhow to do something, she's started potty training without my prompting her to do it. She figures things out fast. She already knows how to use the computer mouse, how to switch off the computer to get my attention she's trying to string sentences together. I have her sit in ly lap and we play the Wiggles game now. (She's up to 3 words sometimes 4. Sings rythms and does all the actions to go with them.) Her skills are older than her age. (I have people comment about it, thinking that she's already 2.)

Sometimes I think its because she's very observant and learns from watching her older sister who's 21/2yrs old. Very natural thing to happen. But I can see the comprehension in her eyes. I'm not saying my kids are gifted or genuines, but even a bit above average kid needs the extra stimulation, and how to keep on top of it. (Katie is just very active, but she's good with picking people, she can tell who a person is in photo's at almost any age. (I've started pre-school early and she donesn't let me forget things in her routine, she remembers things very well. Her drawing skills are ahead of her age.) I won't know where they are will al that until they start school and the teachers can see how they're learning skills are. I'm not worried about things like, proud of em both anyway... All kids are different in how they learn.

SJ- You must feel proud even though its hard work at times that he is excellent with learning. (Nothing wrong with that BTW!!!) One of my close friends son is a lot like Joshie. He had trouble at first because he's gifted, but his mum got onto it quick and gave him extra things to do when he came home from school. (Even though his teacher didn't pick up and just treated him as a disruptive child, to the point he was bored out of his brain in kindy.) He's a great kid and with the work she's put into him he's turned out to be a stable kid that has lots of friends without intimidating them. (She teaches him tolorence for kids not at his level, to pay attention to them and listen, and look past just being smart.)

Just remember even though he's gifted he's still a little kid so his maturity levels are still not there yet even though he's emotionally intelligent too, but it looks like you have many years of wonder ahead of you from the way he learns!

My dad was gifted in a more practical way, he could make anything he set his mind to do. He made timber row boat from scratch in his teen's. Bowed the wood and etc even put a small sailing mast. His father rarely showed him how to do anything and he was forced to leave school early due to the family being poor. He went and worked in a coal mine like his father, but dad was a top apprentice in his field, mum said he was top of his class in all his subjects at college during those years. All a person had to do was say they needed a part for an engine or something built and dad could do it even without blueprints. He could look at the shape and knew how to do it and at times drew up his own plan, and it would turn out perfect. And he had a good memory for facts.

Education wasn't high on parents agenda, we just told to get leave school and get a job. Uni wasn't practical enough for them. Sigh....

Let us know how you go with everything....

__________________
Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.

Posted by amethyst on 16-12-2009 at 17:36:

SJ, many of the things I'd suggest have already been said, but look for chapter books (2nd or 3rd grade level) or graphic novels from things he enjoys -- just because he is intellectually on a different level doesn't mean that he has that same emotional maturity (this is really tough on middle school readers).

Keep on the school and teacher! But also be understanding. In today's educational climate, she probably has a kindergarten class of 20 to 25 maybe even 30 when it should be 15 to 18. From that approximately 50% are average learners, 25% are slightly above or below average, 20% will have some sort of learning challenge, and 5% may be gifted. These numbers are not statistically proven, but based on experience in multiple classroom settings and as a parent of a gifted child with learning issues (yes they often run hand in hand). If you can volunteer time in the classroom it will help the teacher greatly and you can assess whether or not she is differentiating instruction or teaching to the average,easy to do in over-filled classrooms.

Watch his interactions with peers, many spectrum disorders that are diagnosed between 5 and 10 years of age start preschool/kindergarten with many of the behaviors you've just described: above average intelligence is a key marker in them, so are poor peer relations. I'm not warning to frighten, but so that you can be forewarned, forewarned is forearmed. It is very difficult to be proactive for your child if you are ignorant of possibilities.

Amethyst
Unemployed CA English Teacher
Parent of AS/ADHD child (BTDT)
and my SiL has an MS in Pyschology (and the rest of the family is just plan crazy) Wink

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