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--- Joe (http://www.gatchamania.net/threadid.php?threadid=2704)
Posted by amyltrer on 12-10-2009 at 19:58:
Joe
This might have been discussed before, I know but.....
Joe is the character with the most outstanding evolution throughout the three series. I felt this long ago as a child when watched Eagle Riders and the originals confirmed it. From the hot-minded easy going Condor in the first series to the laid back G2 in Fighter is a long way. The cause is his mechanical modification. But how much did Rafael's surgery changed Joe?
What sort of cyborg is he? Like lucy? Like Lucy and Romina? Is there metal under his skin? Is his skeletal structure enforced with metal? In ep 23 of Gatch F Joe takes a bullet in the shoulder from Nambu and he doesn't bleeds or appears injured.
In some episodes he seems average human, while in another he lifts and tosses a tank. Obviously his muscular tissue must have been altered by Rafael.
It isn't stated in the series but his brain must have suffered implants/alterations too, because of the shrapnel stuck in it that also caused his ...."demise" at the end of Gatch 1. Linking the brain damage with his more laid back attitude from the second and third series I can't help but wonder if it's the cyborg alteration gave Joe a flat personality.
What I haven't figured out is if he's more human or more machine. Or if he's still alive. I'm not saying Joe isn't a person anymore (he has mental autonomy and feeling) , but is he still a living person? Does his internal organs still work? In Gatch 2 there was an x-ray picture that show robotic devices where his internal organs should be. Besides he carries a bomb in his torso that should detonate when he is nearby Sosai. (A nasty issu in itself , considering he could endanger not only his team but the whole Gatch base)
At the beginning of F series Nambu says he's found a way to recharge Joe. (A Condor attached to a charger cable plugged into a socket pops into my mind 
) Did Joey worked on storage batteries or did he still need to eat in order to get energy?
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Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 12-10-2009 at 20:12:
I have never watched anything beyond the original series so I can't offer anything helpful...
But ... perhaps young Joey has an alternator like our cars do? You know, recharges the "battery" as he moves?
Flash had a pretty nifty wristwatch that did the same thing....
SJ
Who can't get into the discussion but will certainly give it a shot...
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Posted by Becky Rock on 12-10-2009 at 20:43:
In my mind, I have compared Joe to the character Marcus (just coincidence) in Terminator Salvation. There is a scene that shows his internal structure - metal ribcage, etc, but human internal organs. I immediately thought 'That must be what Joe looks like.'
Wendy's Out of the Shadows describes Joe's skin as having been augmented to make it bullet proof. I'd have to go back and reread for the rest.
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Posted by Ebonyswanne on 12-10-2009 at 23:26:
I don't think he became 'laid back and easy going' but more controlled in his temper and actions as the series progressed. I picked up on that a lot too, more and more focus went towards developing the Condor.
Ryu is laid back in personality and very easy going.
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Posted by Transmute Jun on 12-10-2009 at 23:53:
I would never call Joe 'laid back', but toward the end of Fighter, from what I've seen, he seems to be more tired of the war and less 'gung ho' to slay every Galactor he meets for the sake of it. He just wants to end the war. Inside, he feels that he's outlived his 'true' life, and that he will/deserves to die to defeat Sosai. He also has to counterbalance Ken, who gets more emotional and off-the-handle as the Hypershoot illness. progresses.
Regardless, his loyalty to his teammates and his dedication to defeating Galactor, even at the cost of his own life, does not change.
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Posted by lborgia88 on 13-10-2009 at 02:10:
RE: Joe
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I could be wrong but I don't think there's much canon to go on here. I think it's canon that he still has his human heart -in Gatch II's ep. 29, Jun says she can feel his heart beating.
It's also canon that he gets a cyborg upgrade of some kind from Dr. Rafael in ep. 25 (and I think that's when he gets the bomb planted beside his heart that will detonate only in Leader X's proximity).
I guess it's also canon that he needs to periodically be "recharged" in order to keep his cyborg parts functioning.
In ep. 16 (and if I recall, some others) he seems to suffer neurological distress from EMFs or certain kinds of tracking beacons (as in ep. 16) which, to me, implies he's got some cyborg hardware implanted in his brain. It's probably there to correct the damage that was killing him at the end of the first series, but maybe there's some enhancement of his senses (vision, hearing etc.) too.
He obviously is a lot stronger and resistant to fire and explosions, so I think it's safe to assume that at least his major muscle groups have been replaced with artificial ones that are stronger or enhanced in some way that makes them stronger and able to function for long periods of time without fatigue. Much (possibly all) of his skin, I would assume, has likewise been replaced/enhanced to make it extra durable and damage-resistant. I also think it's probable that most of his body's major skeletal components have also been replaced with stronger ones, or reinforced in some way for greater durability and damage resistance.
I would speculate that he might have some organs that are artificial -he did get shot up with bullets at the end of the first series. I could well believe that some of his innards had to be replaced by Dr. Rafael, but I like to think that most are still his own.
Again, I think that most of Joe's cyborg details were never really specified by the writers, and so we can only go with what seems plausible, based on the show's canon facts and the evidence Joe demonstrates by his actions and abilities.
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 13-10-2009 at 09:10:
I agree IB, they did leave a lot open to interpretation when it came to how Joe is actually built. just from what I've read and seen of the Gatch II and Fighter. Great for ficcie writing!
The main focuses were on his strength and heart.
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Posted by gatchamarie on 13-10-2009 at 18:28:
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This is also my view on the issue of Joe's change of character. He had been through a lot and this was clearly shown in the first episode of Gatch F when he was out of energy and lost hope thinking that what he had to do and lived for had been accomplished. Ken was the one in that episode that told him and encouraged him to move on as he had to enjoy the peace that they so fought for. Feeling devastated when he was the first to find out about Ken's deteriorating health more on in the series, and knowing well how it felt to be torn by illness, Joe switched character with Ken on the turn of the situation.
As to his body, I also like to think of Joe keeping his human organs, maybe some of them changed or enhanced according to the necessity. In Episode 48, the last one of Gatch F, I clearly recall seeing a human skeleton shown when Joe was electrocuted by Sosai Z as he tried to expose its source. No blood, I think, was seen when an energy bolt passed right through his chest on their way to destroy the asteroid of antimatter and clearly no internal organs were damaged (at least not human) as he progressed through the fight sometimes seeming as if he was not injured at all. I also think that his senses were enhanced especially when he could easily detect Sosai Z's being when approaching him, this ability given by Dr Raphael.
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Posted by Ebonyswanne on 14-10-2009 at 09:25:
I like to think some parts of him were left alone...LOL my mind just hit gutter level smut. 
I see him as having some kind of inplant because other wise he would have had to have brain damage from the condition that was killing him. Human flesh, with some organs replaced and something along the lines of the "six million dollar man" effect. Human yet not all human.
I imaged that too Gatchamarie. His hightened senses of Leader Z. I used that kinda idea in my AU. That Joe could make an easier connection with him and his presence in his mind.
I think Joe wasn't entirely sure himself exactly what was done to him.
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Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.
Posted by gatchamarie on 14-10-2009 at 14:49:
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That's the idea!
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Posted by tatsunokofan on 16-10-2009 at 00:35:
Hi all!
The subject of exactly how much of Joe is cybernetic and exactly what his abilities are has been something fans have talked about for many years now. Sadly, the exact extent of his abilities seemed to vary from episode to episode. In one episode he was strong enough to lift a tank, but in the next, he would be portrayed almost like a normal human. In another they establish that Joe cannot sweat, yet in another he is seen sweating up a storm. It's my belief that the writers never decided exactly what Joe could do, so his abilities and limitations were determined by the needs of any given episode.
As for how much of Joe is a cyborg, we do get to see a few examples that show some of his innards, and they might help clarify things a bit.
Here's a model sheet image of Joe's musculature:
How that was shown in the series itself:
Here are some X-Ray-style shows of Joe's insides, showing snippets of some of his cybernetic parts:
Here's a somewhat clearer cutaway which also shows the more mechanical nature of his skeletal system:
Here's a close-up of the cybernetic part in Joe's chest.
Here is an image produced by Tatsunoko for the magazine Animage back at the point when it was first revealed that Joe was a cyborg:
There were also a couple of times when we saw inside Joe's body when he got near Governor X and Governor Z:
Joe's eyes were apparently also changed by Dr. Raphael, as this targetting sight appeared in his vision when he was tracking the location of Governor Z:
And if he was punctured, it was possble that Joe would have sparks appear from the wound, as seen here:
I hope these will help some!
James
Posted by clouddancer on 16-10-2009 at 00:44:
Thank you James, those are very interesting .... since I had not seem them as screenshots like that before. Although I suspect they are available on different sites, perhaps even here, if I was willing to search for them.
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Posted by Becky Rock on 16-10-2009 at 00:57:
James, that's great. Thanks.
It makes it appear the only parts of his skeleton still bone are his head, most of his arms, his pelvis and most of his legs, with smaller cybernetic additions here and there, like at the joints, in his head and near his heart. Full cybernetics make up his chest and spine, which makes sense since he was all shot up.
Again, it seems very much like Marcus in Terminator Salvation.
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Posted by Transmute Jun on 16-10-2009 at 01:31:
Thanks for all of those images, James! It was very helpful! 
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Posted by lborgia88 on 16-10-2009 at 02:55:
Thanks for the information, James! It's good to have it clarified that Joe's cyborg features and abilities were never exactly clarified. It gives fic writers some wiggle room, although the images you've posted here definitely provide some good evidence of what Dr. Rafael did to Joe.
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 16-10-2009 at 08:14:
What I think happens to is that we write ficcies in 2009...(After 2000) Well a lot later than when the ideas of technology were floating around. A cyborg was total fantasy back then. A lot of guess work to how a robotic converted human would work and function. Even though we have guess work still now, we have a lot more technological advancements to draw on. I'm not a scientist by any means, but I still have access to information and learning to drawn on.
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Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.
Posted by gatchgirl on 16-10-2009 at 15:20:
Great topic Amy, I've enjoyed reading everyones different thoughts and opinions. Along with James indepth pics and info. it clears up some of my own thoughts on the subject.
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Posted by amyltrer on 16-10-2009 at 16:41:
Thank you for the images James. I had a faint memory of a scene were Joe's body appears through X-rays.
I saw the vision pic in ep 48 of Fighter but didn't realised this is through Joe's eyes. Does he ever use targetting sight before in the series? Does this happened as a result of his proximity with Z or it was another enhancement?He had a very accurate aim in Gatch 1 but in 2 and F was awsome!
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Posted by gatchamarie on 16-10-2009 at 17:42:
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It's the same for me, Amy! I also saw that bit in ep 48 of Gatchaman F but I never came to the conclusion that that was what Joe's eyes visualised!
Thanks for the pics and info, James! You always know how to quench our thirst for info regarding Gatchaman!
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To be or not to be a gatchamaniac - that's the dilemma!
Posted by tatsunokofan on 16-10-2009 at 23:21:
Hi all!
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That's the only time we ever see that, so whether or not it's something he can use at will or something that only works when he's near X or Z is unclear. It would seem like something that would be handy to be able to take advantage of whenever he wanted, but you never know how the X-obsessed Dr. Raphael would have wired him.
James
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