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--- To be or not to be: that is the question about copirights (http://www.gatchamania.net/threadid.php?threadid=2665)
Posted by yul on 13-09-2009 at 10:12:
To be or not to be: that is the question about copirights
As you can see in my signature, I`m an adversary of inserting copirights in self-made creations, but it`s my own principle. But when question is concerned with using another people`s things I want to be respectful.
Ok, the problem is: I have about 60 episodes of Gatch II and F from Pandora TV on my hard-disk and some people want to watch them on Youtube. I don`t know how to ask permission of those Pandora uploaders (my Korean is too poor 
). On the one hand they don`t own Gatchaman, on the other hand Pandora is the only source of these episodes (furthermore, there are Korean subs).
So, what I supposed to do? Do not upload at all?
Upload without any ethical torments? Paste the note every time that I don`t want to steal anything, but watching on Pandora is so slow and difficult for non-Koreans?
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Posted by tatsunokofan on 13-09-2009 at 12:25:
Hi all!
I just want to get this straight: you're concern is about taking the episodes of Gatchaman II and Gatchaman Fighter from Pandora and putting them on YouTube because you're bothered by the ethics of stealing the efforts of the person who loaded them onto Pandora, but not because you're bothered by the ethics of stealing the efforts of the studio that originally created them?
James
Posted by yul on 13-09-2009 at 15:16:
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James, Tatsunoko is a great studio and its creations are inimitable. But what I (or somebody else) have to do if series aren`t on sale and there aren`t any expectancies for it. I really WANT TO BUY but nobody wants to sell. So, I don`t think that it is stealing. After all, Youtube users don`t get any commercial profit. And I also don`t have an aim to become a popular uploader in this way (BTW, I hate ratings). I just want to popularize Gatch and help another people to find it easy.
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Posted by amethyst on 13-09-2009 at 15:22:
I'm not a lawyer, but because of the type of work I do when actually employed and volunteer work I usually do when not working, I'm familiar with copyrights (to the extent that my last discussion on them ended with me and my cousin not speaking with each other).
The copyright belongs to the creator, whether it is claimed (registered) immediately or not. It applies to physical creations and intellectual property (vague, huh). Copyrights do expire, but can be renewed (though not indefinitely). Copyrights and publishing rights are different, which is why we can write fanfiction or create fan art and post (note the verb) to share, not sell, with others.
As I said earlier, I'm not a lawyer, therefore I cannot legally advise you on what to do. However, I'm fairly certain that if you do post them, if there is a problem with them being copyrighted or violating someone else's publishing rights Youtube will usually remove them before it becomes an issue. They may also block your account.
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Posted by tatsunokofan on 13-09-2009 at 15:34:
Hi all!
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But they are available to buy. They have been released on DVD in Japan, and people outside of Japan can purchase them from places like Amazon Japan or CD Japan. I'll be happy to provide links if that's what you need. Since these versions are in straight Japanese, not an English dub or with English subtitles, the typical "But I want them in English" excuse doesn't apply.
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I suspect that Tatsunoko would disagree.
Regardless, since you don't care about Tatsunoko's rights in this matter, why are you concerned with whatever non-existent rights the person who illegally uploaded them onto Pandora has?
James
Posted by Transmute Jun on 13-09-2009 at 15:41:
Yul, i think your biggest concern in this case would be that Youtube will likely pull the videos and probably delete your account, if you post them.
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Posted by amyltrer on 13-09-2009 at 16:04:
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Which is an admirable thing! But as TJ said, they might delete your account for doing it, so I recommend you to make a new one for this job!
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Posted by yul on 13-09-2009 at 16:42:
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Copyrights issue always generates holywars
James, in practice everything isn`t so easy:
1. I want to remind that not all the people in the world are English or Japanese native speakers. And "But I want them only in <insert language>" often annoys me too. I have never watch the most part of Gatch episodes in native language and for me it isn`t a big problem.
2. Amazon Japan or CD Japan doesn`t work with all countries and even if they write that they do, it means nothing, local dealers may deny such orders. There are also problems with money order. Or local dealer may fix SUCH prices for carriage that the price of DVD is a very small % of it. Really. I have already tried.
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There are a lot of Gatch I episodes on Youtube and Tatsunoko hasn`t raised an objection yet.
James, judge by all your posts you are the best Gatchaman expert between us that sometimes made me think that you are concerned with our favorite studio
Is it really so and your position is official opinion?BTW, I`m not afraid of deleting my Youtube account. If only just Tatsunoko think so, not anybody else.
As for Pandora users, ripping/decompressing/uploading video is also a work, sometimes very boring and long and I want to be respectful.
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Posted by tatsunokofan on 13-09-2009 at 17:24:
Hi all!
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I'm not sure exactly how local dealers stop an order sent directly to you through the mail, but I'll take your word for it. All I know is that, in America, I've never had a problem with an order from either CD Japan or Amazon Japan. Have you tried a proxy service, like Celga, which can place a proxy order for you on a website like Amazon Japan, and ship the items to you once they have received it? Or having the items shipped from Amazon Japan or CD Japan to a friend in another country, who could then forawrd it to you in non-Amazon or CD Japan packaging?
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I never said that they had. I only said that Tatsunoko would likely consider putting their material on a website like YouTube (Or Pandora, for that matter) to be stealing, even if you don't think of it as such.
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An official position would be that yes, I am concerned about Tatsunoko, and I believe it would be best if people did not illegally distribute their works.
I am also realistic enough to know that this is not how the world works, and that it's going to happen whether I like it or not.
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And that's what gets me -- you want to be respectful to the person who illegally uploaded the material, but you have no problem being disrespectful to the people who created the material in the first place. It's that double standard that makes no sense to me.
James
Posted by amethyst on 13-09-2009 at 17:44:
Copying and loading onto a video onto a site is no different than loading an essay or story onto a site, it is time consuming work but it is not intellectual property, and therefore not copyrightable; the actual video or other art is. Therefore, if you have downloaded Gatch II or F from another site, the copyright remains with the Tatsonuko. If the subbing was down with permission, then the copyright belongs to either the persons responsible for the subbing and/or Tatsonuko depending upon the agreement. If the subbing was a fan sub there might be copyright on it; if said fan then posted it to share, they are in copyright violation with the video which trumps any claim they may make on the subbing.
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Posted by yul on 13-09-2009 at 23:23:
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James, I`ve already downloaded and watched a huge number of the series, even uploaded some of them, so I`ve already a stealer and you may already think that I`m very vile and evil person.
We can only suppose that people from Tatsunoko think about all this things. And our opinions are only our ones, ok?
Benining of emotional content -> As I`ve already said, I hold in high respect Tatsunoko, Gatchaman is one of my favorite anime, so I`m here. When I was a child, I found Gatch series by pure accident, but they influenced on me a lot and may be even made reflect on some important things. And I know that I`m not the only one. If somebody find them by pure accident too, it will be cool. If somebody find them and become nostalgic, it will be cool. De-ure it is a crime to share it, de-facto the crime is not to share some rarity. Call me Robin Hood or f******g pirate. <-End of emotional content.
BTW, some pictures just for fun:
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Posted by tatsunokofan on 14-09-2009 at 00:05:
Hi all!
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Look, I'm not going to call you a pirate or rant and rave about either how you're an evil person, nor will I praise you for providing a noble service by sharing rare material. All I want is an explanation regarding your initial dilema over whether or not you should use the videos uploaded by the person who put them on Pandora. I still do not understand why you find it a problem to steal these videos when you have no problem with that material being stolen from someone else in the first place. It's more of an ethical question than a question of piracy or copyrights. Simply put, why is it okay to steal from one source (Tatsunoko), but not from the other (The person who uploaded the videos)?
James
Posted by yul on 14-09-2009 at 00:39:
Because stealing from another stealers is new for me unlike stealing from Tatsunoko, so I need an advice, LOL.
The serious answer of this question has already been earlier, sometimes I work with video and know that pre-uploading operations may be exhausting too.
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Posted by tatsunokofan on 14-09-2009 at 01:04:
Hi all!
Well, from a completely dispassionate perspective, it would seem to me that, your first hand knowledge of the work involved in the process notwithstanding, stealing from one source is the same as stealing from another.
You may not have first hand knowledge of the work that was involved in creating an episode of Gatchaman II or Gatchaman Fighter, but I can guarantee you that the work there was exhausting too, and was more laborious than the prep work for uploading a video. All things being equal, if you have no concern for the one, then you should have no concern for the other.
James
Posted by Cain Highwind on 14-09-2009 at 03:11:
WHOA! Video uploading is TEH SEERIUS BIZNESS
I'm kinda with James in the sense that it's rather perplexing that you're worried about the (likely illegal) uploader's rights and not Tatsunoko's.
My thoughts on Fansubs and the like: The general consensus I've heard from various North American distributors is that if the Anime isn't available in your country/language, then yeah, fansubs/uploaded RAWS are "okay". Not legal sure, but Anime studios definitely see the plus sides of making the series more well known to a foreign audience through the "grassroots" manner of fansub trading.
Once it's officially licensed though, you're obligated to delete any fansubs you may have and support the DVDs released in your region. That's how it's been with Anime for the last few years though we're starting to see more American-Japanese partnerships in the form of Simulcasts (Official Subs that are released simultaneously alongside Japanese Broadcasts) I wish Tatsunoko could join the same bandwagon that TMS and Kadokawa are on and start legally streaming their library of titles on Youtube, but I think we're still a long ways away from that.
I say go for it! But instead of Youtube, go with Veoh. There' no 10 minute limit and ironically, there's already a TON of Tatsunoko shows uploaded by fans on there (Yatterman 2008, Akubi-chan, Casshern OVA, and Battle of the Planets)
Posted by amethyst on 14-09-2009 at 04:14:
I agree with Cain on Veoh vs Youtube. But you've got to be careful on the upload format, to watch some videos requires special player programs and watch their bandwidth, when it gets too much traffic the streaming is often cut off. However, when it works it is smooth and the quality of the video is as good as the upload in most cases.
However, as James says, before you upload this get your priorities straight: if your not worried about stealing (which is basically what copyright infringement is) from the original owner, then why be worried about stealing from the thief?
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Posted by amyltrer on 14-09-2009 at 09:05:
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Cain I don't know about the length limit since there are videos on youtube longer than 10 minutes. And Veoh have restricted access to east european countries.
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Posted by yul on 14-09-2009 at 12:27:
I need fresh Gatchfacepalm.jpg-s.
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Not for me, but I doesn`t mean that somebody else think so. I just want to say thanks for somebody besides Tatsunoko and think that it is easy to understand (or difficult, it depends on your psychology). Just thanks, nothing more. And I don`t say that uploaders have real "rights".
As for ethics, Veoh and Youtube are absolutely similar. And I agree with Amy, Veoh absolutely s**ks in some places.
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Posted by Firebird on 14-09-2009 at 14:23:
James,
Can you PM me the links if possible for celga - I think I willhave to go that route as shipping for some to the Uk is difficult.
I think I am lucky in that at work currently they are offering a variety of languages to learn at a discounted rate, I am hoping this will give me a push and incentive to do something I have wanted to do even before I knew BOTP was Gatch.
Thanks
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Like the Phoenix I rise from the fire. Beware all who try to tame me, you may get burned 
Posted by lborgia88 on 14-09-2009 at 18:17:
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I think that age-old adage, "There is honour among thieves," might explain it. The whole matter of copyright and a person or company's right to be compensated for use of their creations/ideas is, in this world of ours, something that's straight forward in theory but more messier and complicated in practice, it seems to me. I guess my own hands are "dirty" here -I've watched Gatch II and F clips on Pandora, and told a couple other people "Hey, there's this site where you can see Gatch II and F!" so, in a sense, I'm not much different from the people at Pandora. Were I willing to really gouge my finances, I could afford to buy legit copies of Gatch II and Gatch F from Japan (and I hope to someday) but I haven't done that yet.
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