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Posted by Cep on 27-06-2004 at 22:10:
Cats and Dogs!
This thread was split from the thread "Damn" at 28.06.2004.
Posted by Cep on 27-06-2004 at 22:10:
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Sorry to say this Buffy but this statement is absolute rubbish. It is a common fact amongst the vetinary profession that animals bred by humans are far more inferior to animals bred in the wild.
In fact many species of dogs bred by so-called professionals have caused certain breeds of dog to become genetically incapable of surviving on their own.
Sausage dogs for instance can snap their spine just by falling from a chair, british bulldogs are so inbred that they have severe arthritus from birth as well as breathing difficulties, poodles are born with severe eye and blood disorders. And it is all caused by being bred by humans.
Cats are not such a problem as they are not normally bred by humans but even such strains as the siamese have been inbred so many times that they are now mostly hairless. True siamese cats have fur.
Whilst neutering pets is usually a good idea, to go and spay any wild animal is complete madness and detrimental to the survival of the species in question.
In addition to the behavior of Cookie; as the poor thing has never had any previous history of voilence even towards the cats that must be prolific around Elvins home. For the dog to suddenly out of the blue kill several animals in this way means that something is wrong with the animal mentally and as I mentioned you cannot have an unpredictable animal near children. I doubt very much that any sanctuary would take Cookie and they would perhaps even suggest putting her down too because of the nature of the incedent.
There is too much of a risk whether you beleive the animal would or would not do the worst and I feel really sorry for you Elvin to have to make such a tough decision. *hugs*
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Posted by Buffy on 27-06-2004 at 23:14:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cep
Sorry to say this Buffy but this statement is absolute rubbish. It is a common fact amongst the vetinary profession that animals bred by humans are far more inferior to animals bred in the wild.
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This is taking this thread way Off Topic, but I'll respond to ya here Cep. What do you think of moving this to it's own thread in the 'debate room' Capitan? (grins at Cep's magic wand o' admin power)
I definately see your point, and both agree and disagree with it. I made a point of saying "Reputable Breeders". Not "Breeders".
'Reputable' being breeders who take the time to make sure their animals are mentally well tempered and suitable for the job they were bred for. As well as screened for genetic weaknesses that cause the problems you mentioned.
Thing is, even when the british bulldog (for instance) is bred carefully by 1 reputable breeder to screen out the arthritis and worst of the breathing problems, you are still gonna have 1000+ non-reputable breeders, as well as the joe shmoe 'backyard breeders' who will pair animals together JUST because they are male and female and JUST because they both have 'papers'.
And, you are right, few 'man-made' breeds could ever survive in the wild. Nature chooses what works and eats the rest. Thing is, few of these animals will live in the wild. This is the key of where I disagree with your statement. They CAN'T breed in the wild. They wouldn't survive long enough to manage it. They will live with people as they were bred to do, and in such a setting, it is impossible for Darwin to do his magic as he should. So you get animals who would not survive infancy living to breeding age. Should we let such flawed dogs, in such a flawed unatural setting such as civilization, breed on their own with the logic that it will automatically create better animals because natural breeding is better? In my opinion, not really.
You get pets in abundance. Pure breds who are cared for and bred improperly so have genetic health issues, or even some mutts who have a few screws loose in their heads. When you get psycho dog number one, breeding on his own with the only available female in the area who has hip displasia, you end up with a high potential of psychotic puppies with hip problems.
In the wild, they'd all die. But they aint' in the wild.
A reputable breeder would spay or neuter animals that don't pass muster, or if they just ain't sure, they'd spay and nuter them just to be safe. Backyard breeders, who are the worst culprits, and among whom I've been numbered when we bred our ASPCA Cockers on our own without the training and knowledge to check into their backgrounds and health to see if the match was wise.
Mutts are generally healthier because they have a wider gene pool to draw from. I love mutts. But I'd still spay and neuter any mutt I had or any pure bred dog I had who I did not pay big bucks for to insure they didn't have some nasty to pass on to their offspring.
You also touched on another topic that irritates the snot out of me: Fad breeding.
You mentioned siamese being irresponsibly bred to the point of hairlessness, which is bad enough. But another thing I really DESPISE is creating such a thing on purpose. Ever seen those mutant hairless sphynx cats? What kind of crack are those breeders smoking? I dont' consider them reputable either. They aren't even promoting a mutation that has a logical purpose. Even weenie dogs were bred for a specific hunting purpose originally.
You also mentioned wild animals. I don't consider half feral cats to be wild animals. They are domesticated animals by breeding and history. In the right setting, I'm sure they'd do fine, but on the whole, allowing them to breed unchecked is problematic. True wild cats have no problems with survival. Feral cats do.
As for Cookie. I have already replied privately to Elvin, but just to clarify: I think that with her age in question, and the extra information shared after my post (for example: it was not clear to me at first that this was a situation that was out of the blue after years of peaceful coexistance.) then in that particular case, she is better off euthinized rather than having a new home found for her .
And on the subject of children, I deliberately didn't get into that because that is another issue altogether. Understanding that I have a 3 year old son and two 70 lb dogs, I totally understand the need to be responsible and safe. I still don't automatically think killing the dog 'just in case' should be the first answer even then. It is an option, but it is a latter option. I see the potential of danger, but I don't automatically put a two ounce furry animal in the same category as a child when it comes to a dog's reactions. That said, it is common sense, to NEVER leave small or immature child unsupervised with /ANY/ dog, no matter how gentle the dog is. They are dogs. Plain and simple. In my own case, my son has never been allowed near my dogs unless an adult is with him.
I apologize to the board for this thread getting so off topic.
And, as I said to you, Elvin, and everyone else here definately has shown their support, it really is a tough situation all around for all involved. Hugs to you Chugra!
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Posted by Tengu on 28-06-2004 at 15:25:
i could say a lot on this since I know a fairish bit about the subject but wont.
Dogs, by and large are bred for a purpose, dogs for meat and dogs for fur, hairless dogs for hot water bottles, waterproof dogs for fishermen, small yappy dogs for small yappy ladies, dogs for preists and dogs for beggars, there is a dog for every occaision.
Cats now, tend to go by region. Many middle eastern cats are the traditional mackerel tabby, the phonecians had a liking for black animals (common on some islands due to a limited gene pool) long haired cats come from the mountains where they need the fur (and unlike their carefully bred counterparts, the street cats of Iran and Turkey have matt proof coats.) south east asian cats are often of the siamese/burmese (two variants of the same mutation) though a lot robuster than pedegree ones. They often have tail deformities, the first cats in the area must have been the same, as in the Japanese bogtail. A british cat is the clouded tabby, now found all over the commonwealth.
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Though I am no Condor, my Skylines rusty enough."
Posted by Buffy on 29-06-2004 at 12:47:
(Thanks Cep)
And...cool Tengu. I am not a cat owner obviously. Severe allergies prevents me from ever owning one. So, by comparison, I know very little of cats other than documentaries on the discovery channel and animal planet. I've had dogs most of my life though.
I love collecting tidbits of info like this. Thanks for sharing!
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"Spider sense....tingling."
Posted by Cep on 29-06-2004 at 17:05:
The worst culprits are actually the so called professional breeders Buffy, for instance the breeders who do crufts ( the world doggy championships for those who don't know ) have been heavily critisized for deliberately interbreeding dogs in the effort to make a trophy winning animal.
Even the European commission has attacked the people who run crufts for allowing dog breeders to get away with it.
( No probs hun 
*hugs* )
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Posted by Elvin Ruler on 29-06-2004 at 17:31:
Actually, the people I despise the most aren't breeders, but morons who decide to get a dog or cat as a whim and then dump the poor animal. What the heck are they thinking? Have they watched too many shows and movies where the little boy sends his beloved pet into the wild where it can be happy?
There are few endings for those animals. Most dumped cats die pretty quick as coyote feed. Abandoned dogs have a few more options.
1. They don't cope with being in the "wild" (most "wild" areas are actually large ranches here in Texas) and starve to death.
2. They do cope. They join other abandoned dogs in a pack. Because they're used to humans, they aren't afraid of them. They attack and kill cattle. The ranchers get fed up with losing money and put out raw meat...with antifreeze on it. Dogs find it, eat it, and die.
3. The dog finds a rancher's house. The rancher either a, adopts the dog, or b, shoots the dog for varying reasons.
This is assuming, of course, that the dog isn't bit by snakes, torn up by coyotes, or other various things.
I almost wish there weren't any movies like that. Dogs are dumped on my neighbor's ranch all the time. He usually shoots them (after calling various people to make sure the animal isn't lost or something). When they find our house, our male Sheltie (who is *definitely* a Collie throwback) usually lets them know that they aren't wanted.
People who breed irresponsibly are bad. But at least they *know* what they're getting into in the terms of the responsibility of finding homes.
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Posted by Buffy on 29-06-2004 at 18:35:
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LOL...I wouldn't consider them 'reputable' breeders. There is a big difference between the terms 'reputable' and 'professional'.
The fact that there is heavy criticism states that more clearly than anything I could say. The word 'professional' simply refers to folks who do something for a 'living'. Making money off of a venture doesn't always make one responsible, though, gosh darn it, maybe it SHOULD.
Now, many professional breeders ARE reputable in their practices....but the two terms are not synonomous.
Owners and operaters of puppy mills are professional breeders as well, and we've all heard about the horror stories associated with that particular nightmare practice.
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"Spider sense....tingling."
Posted by Buffy on 29-06-2004 at 18:40:
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Ye Gods, ANOTHER pet peeve of mine!
I really wish folks who don't want animals, and refuse to take the time to find homes, can't find homes for them, or at least have them euthinized, would then show the backbone and responsiblilty enough to at least SHOOT the animal in question instead of condemning it to a slow and miserable death by abandonment. Arrrrrgh!
Sheesh....I get entirely too heated on this topic methinks.
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"Spider sense....tingling."
Posted by CricketBeautiful on 29-06-2004 at 18:48:
Cep, the folks you described aren't the "responsible" breeders. Unfortunately, the do have the trappings of respectability, and are in a perfect position to mislead those who do try to do their homework.
Responsible breeders are the malamute owners who check the Xrays of the grandparents, because the hip problems don't show up until after breeding age. (http://www.amrone.org/)
Responsible breeders are the ones who breed for temprament, not looks, who (forgive me, I don't remember the name of the breed, but it was Scandinavian, and the one outside the library was large and calm) realized that their genepool was too small and now the official breed is 1/4 ?labradour?.
Note: the two nation-wide Kennel Clubs here are *not* totally responsible -- just check out their "breed standard" pages -- lots of stuff on colour and line.
Responsible breeders are the ones who let you play with the animals, who talk to you about your family and help you chose the right individual. Who tell you that beagles are hunting dogs and escape artists, before you buy. Beagles actually need as much running room as large dogs, and like forests.
Some groups of feral dogs might do better than humans. Many probably do worse. Feral dogs don't necessarily have a wider selection of mates. They certainly don't know the history of each individual.
Responsible breeders who know what they're doing, and really know their breed, will admit it if their gene pool is too small.
With mixed-breed, it's hard to tell which traits an individual will inherit from each parent. With pure-breeds, or known crosses, you've got a better chance.
That's for creating new lives, or if the wish-list for the dog is hard to meet.
When and if we choose a dog for our home, we'll probably go to the pound and get a young adult mixed breed -- old enough that I know what personality it will grow into, but young enough to be adaptable -- or as adaptable as a dog can be. Our needs, while definite, aren't long -- fit our house and yard, works well with older kids, calm, and not loud. Hmmmm, given our house and yard, and not loud, maybe we'll give fish another try.
Cricket
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Between stimulus and response there is a space.
In that space is our power to choose our response.
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
- Viktor E. Frankl
Posted by Elvin Ruler on 29-06-2004 at 19:17:
Heh. Of course, totally off topic, fish don't have much of a chance at my parents' house. ^_^ Dulce is still pretty sure that beta fish grow in that glass vase on the counter. Poor girl doesn't realize that we're not going to put another fish in there. Keeps knocking it over in hopes, though. ^_^
Mixed breeds are *very* hard to predict. A friend of mine got a chow/pit bull mix. You'd think it'd be the most tempermental dog alive. Instead it's the laziest, sweetest thing, though it looks like it'd snap you in half without thinking.
Breeding for looks is definitely dangerous. We own a pure-bred pekinese. However and fortunately, he is not pedigree. The owner bred for sweet pets, not for the flattest nose possible. Whereas other owners are having to shell out a good deal of money to have their dog's sinus systems operated on, Mushu's sinuses are just fine.
Cricket, I wanted to let you know that adopting dogs often works out extremely well. Many people I know who have adopted have found that the new addition to the family seems to know that it was rescued. Furthermore, there are some animal shelters that separate the dogs into different housing units depending on their personality and temperment. If you choose to adopt, good luck on finding a perfect match for your family.
Elvin
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Posted by meridianday on 29-06-2004 at 19:51:
Elvin, how many animals have you got there?
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Mallanox : "My mother was Irish and my father was an alien. I was an only child and I dress funny." Posted by Tengu on 29-06-2004 at 20:05:
I have met many breeders and IMHO opinion none of them know about genetics, let alone be reputable
a worthwhile dog is a real dingo (or New Guinea Singing Dog which is close) these are robust and very smart animals.
I have read accounts of Dingo hunters. they might spend months trying to shoot or trap one wily dingo...
I think I would like to be a dingo hunter, I wouldnt want to kill them tho` unless they were smarter than me.
(interestingly they have a very limited gene pool, but nature weeds out the poor ones.)
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Posted by Elvin Ruler on 29-06-2004 at 21:48:
Let's see, right now, we have 3 dogs (including Cookie), er...*throws cat food outside and does headcount* around 15 cats outside (give or take), 4 cats inside, one bird inside.
We have had in the past (my lifetime):
1 horse
a lot of fish (including the belated beta fish, which Dulce found delicious, I'm sure)
6 birds (1 cockatiel, 1 parakeet, and 4 finches)
7-8 dogs (at different times ^_^)
4 rabbits
1 guinea pig
a fluctuation between 7-30 outdoor cats, depending on various circumstances (had a whole bunch of kittens, neighbors having to put out poisoned meat in order to get rid of a pack of wild dogs that was killing off calves, strays shuffling in and out, etc)
1 African Pygmy Hedgehog
The oldest animal is a 16-17 year old calico that is the sweetest thing on this planet. Really sweet old girl. The youngest two are Sand and Chicken Little, the two kittens we currently have. Hopefully one or both of them will find a good home with one of my friends who has expressed interest.
I think that's it. I could be wrong. ^_^ All animals are cared for. Mom says since I claim to love them all that I can just take them all. ^_^ But as much as she talks, she still goes out and finds the little kitten that needs antibiotics and takes care of it. She'll buy the necessary items for my little brother to hand-feed abandoned runts of the litter. So, though at some points we might feel a tad overwhelmed by the amount of cats, we still do what's necessary. All the other animals, of course, are also cared for. They just don't tend to get into as much trouble.
Anyways, there's the headcount. A lot, no? Good thing we have plenty of space.
Tengu - I've always thought dingos were really cool, though I've yet to see one in person (what with living in Texas and all). Considering the Australian ranchers' efforts, they must be pretty darn smart to still be alive. I've never thought how they might be as pets. It's always interesting to see how it works out with a wild animal as a pet. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. ^_^ But they *are* cool.
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Posted by stardust on 29-06-2004 at 23:56:
I am a reputable breeder. Or at least I was. When done right it will tire you out.
I had two litters with my girl scotty. After the second litter, and it being a ceaserean I decided she was done with puppies. She had low a birth number both times, (1 and 2) and we did manage to produce one champion out of it. I bred her for the right reasons, beautiful tempermant, correct scotty traits, just about dead on standard. The male I have, I neutered. He posessed too many negative dominant traits. But I still love him.
I showed them both and had fun, till I discovered how political the show ring was. The people that Cep and Tengu are talking about I have encountered. They are nasty and backbiting and will do everything to hold you back. One of them pretended to be my friend and mentor. As soon as she got the pup she needed for new blood in her kennels she dropped me like a hot potato. Not to mention she made sure her kennel name went on both puppies(if you own the bitch then your name goes on the pedigree). I have never been burned like I have in the world of dog showing. However there are some good breeders who really care out there. I will continue to seek them as my guys grow older and I will be looking for a puppy soon. Will I show it? If I do it will be in agility and obedience. I am through with the pretty parade.
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A villain must be a thing of power, handled with delicacy and grace. He must be wicked enough to excite our aversion, strong enough to arouse our fear, human enough to awaken some transient gleam of sympathy. - Agnes Repplier
Posted by Elvin Ruler on 30-06-2004 at 00:34:
That's cool that you were a breeder. Scotties are so cute! I am so sorry to hear that you were burned. That really stinks. Some people I knew showed their dogs in agility and obedience. They had a lot of fun with it. Of course, the competitions they were in weren't high-caliber or anything like that.
Hope you enjoy whatever you choose to do. Whether they be for show and or just for companionship, dogs are great animals. They always have a way to make you smile.
I'm not all for the pretty parade (I like that term, Sd!). Some of the friendliest and best dogs I've had would definitely not qualify for it.
Anyways, gonna go watch some anime with the bro, so laters!
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Posted by Tengu on 30-06-2004 at 14:44:
A Dog Book I find to be of perrenial fastination is
THE OBSERVERS BOOK OF DOGS
(The observers series are a long defunct pocket series jam packed with obscure info, they are very collectable but easy to lay your hands on in any 2nd hand store. for the non GB reader, best try Ebay.co.uk.)
__________________
"If you think I am a Condor, you may keep that opinion;
Though I am no Condor, my Skylines rusty enough."
Posted by Tengu on 30-06-2004 at 14:49:
[URL=http://search-desc.ebay.co.uk/observers-dogs_W0QQsaavailabletocountryZ3QQsotextsearchedZ2]
Go fetch!
__________________
"If you think I am a Condor, you may keep that opinion;
Though I am no Condor, my Skylines rusty enough."
Posted by CricketBeautiful on 30-06-2004 at 15:25:
Improved link for Tengu
Ebay listing of book
Ha-hah! I know how to use BBS URL's!!!
<Cricket puts the skill in with the rest of her skills, vaguely concerned if she'll actually be able to find it again, then goes back to packing up the china cabinet and books in preparation for the renovations.>
__________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space.
In that space is our power to choose our response.
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
- Viktor E. Frankl
Posted by Cep on 30-06-2004 at 16:59:
That was half right Tengu luv, but if you use that method you need to add a name after the bracket and then [/url] 
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