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Posted by Elvin Ruler on 27-06-2004 at 02:38:
Damn
Stepped outside mid-afternoon today to find that one of our non-tame tabby females had had three adorable little kittens and was, surprisingly, keeping them near the house. I was ecstatic.
One of my dogs killed, viciously, two of the three kittens. The mother was hunching over the third, terrified. I actually didn't figure out what was going on until I noticed a pile of remains. The two older kittens had run off somewhere and I was looking for them, initially. When I did realize what was going on, I immediately started trying to figure out a way to chain the dog, since she doesn't have a collar, in order to protect the third kitten.
Unfortunately, while I was inside, Cello, the other dog, got the other kitten. Now Cello is a sweetie. I understand that he was trying to protect the kitten (he had it cuddled up next to him). However, this freaked the mother out. So I took the little thing (we're talking it can't be more than a couple of days old) and put it where she had been (she ran when I came up). I pretty much figured at this point that we'd probably lose this kitten as well.
So I chained up Cookie, the other dog, and Cello, since I figured he'd probably try to help again (total sweetie, but he has hurt kittens before accidentally). Called Mom. We're probably going to have to put Cookie down.
I like Cookie, so it upsets me some that we're going to have to do this, but we do. She was abused by her previous owner, so basically she's scared of everyone, except me (actually, since I've chained her up and yelled at her, she's probably scared of me now, too). She had no training when we got her, and house-training proved impossible. The liklihood of someone wanting her is minimal. Yet, since we suspect that she's behind the deaths of several other kittens, we can't keep her.
Since chaining them up, it's been about an hour. The mama's taken the little one back with her, which is wonderful because of the unliklihood of that happening in such circumstances. Untame cats rarely take human-handled kittens back, but apparently she's ok. The two older ones are still hiding, but I figure they'll come back when they're hungry (their mother hangs out on the porch). This is just such a mess, but it looks like it'll get better.
I feel a sort of sadness about Cookie. I feel as it's somehow partly my fault, but at at the same time I couldn't work with Cookie while being at college. I know it's probably better for everything if we put her down. There's no way we can keep her contained, so if we don't, more kittens will probably end up dead. I'm just so shocked at the way she did it. It was so brutal. The kittens weren't just killed, they were torn to pieces to the point of being unrecognizable. *sigh*
Thanks for tolerating my ramblings. I just had to get it all out. I usually figure out how I feel about something pretty quickly. What should be obvious isn't to me. I see that it needs to be done, and yet I still don't want to.
Thanks again. I'll probably update on what's going on when more develops, because, honestly, I'll have more mixed emotions depending on how kittens and dogs are doing. Well...if I don't stop now, I'll probably write all night...
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What if there is a spoon? 
Posted by Cep on 27-06-2004 at 10:07:
Aww sweetie! 
*big warm fuzzy hugs* 
I think its probably best that Cookie is put down if not for the sake of future kittens but the risk that she might attack a baby or toddler.
The behaviour you mention is more then likely an insecure reaction and its too dangerous to let it continue.
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Posted by Tengu on 27-06-2004 at 11:39:
Me too, a nervous dog is a hazard, I have seen too many people come to grief that way.
Its possible to train a dog to be socialbe around other animals (and, IMHO a dog with no good killer instinct is not worth having) but if you dont have the time or cant do so then that dog is wrong for you.
Its obviously not a tame or affectionate animal so you wont be missing it. (unless you need a yard dog for security...which wont stop a real intruder)
and why are you letting your queen have kittens? Need a ready supply of feral cats for vermin? Your vet should know how to catch a feral for spaying if thats an issue.
(and if he dont know, then get a new vet...)
Harsh judgement but you have to be realistic about these things.
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Though I am no Condor, my Skylines rusty enough."
Posted by Buffy on 27-06-2004 at 14:00:
You know...I sent this first as a PM to Elvin Ruler, but I've changed my mind, I'm gonna post it here because I think it is important enough to share.
Tengu, while usually pointedly blunt and pessamistic in her delivery of her statements, has a point with the cats. They should be spayed/neutered.
I'm a strong believer in spaying and neutering any dog or cat not specifically chosen by a reputable breeder for breeding purposes because of their superior physical health and exempliary personalities. Any other breeding done is not doing a favor to either dogs or cats as a species, and more often then not, exposing them to dangers through roaming for mates, and condemning their young to poor futures.
Feral cats have a life expectancy of little more than one year unless they can find someone to take them in. In that time, a female can still produce 2 or 3 litters of 1 - 6 kittens each...thus promoting an endless cycle of brutality and overbreeding. I have no patience with people who try to anthromorphisize their dogs/cats and 'not want to take their manhood' or 'they'll be incomplete and unhappy if they don't have puppies/kittens'. We can convince ourselves of anything if we want, but both of those statements are horsehockey. Dogs and Cats are more content, healthier, and happier when they don't have that kind of stress in their lives. Okay...off my soapbox.
(Edit: I am not ranting at you Elvin. I reread this after I posted and realized it sounded bitchy and that I'm jumping down your throat on the issue of breeding. But I really am just ranting in general about a couple of my cousins and neighbors who have helped contribute to a pack of feral dogs in the woods behind their house. They've also shot so many dogs/cats because they couldn't be bothered to find homes for them or train them, or let them fight over breeding rights. And they STILL think their dogs adn cats are happier breeding?? I've talked to them, and no matter what I say, they talk about how 'they'd never get their dogs fixed because it is cruel....you just don't take a man's balls away from them." Whimper. )
And you know, spaying for at least your feral females will have the side effect of taking away the problem of having kittens for the dogs to chase...
On to the advice: The rest of this is almost completely what I sent to Elvin in the PM.
***********************
Hey Elvin,
I felt I didnt' want to get into a big debate on the main thread, but I did want to reply to your story.
I'm a dog lover myself, and I study dog/wolf behavior as a hobby. A dog who is 'vicious' is, yes, a hazard to everyone as Tengu said. Thing is, I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is a dangerous dog. Dangerous to kittens yes. I'm suprised Cookie isn't dangerous to cats as well. But you know, Cookie is not behaving outside a natural and normal dog/wolf instinct.
In fact, I'd say your other dog Cello is behaving more unusually with his unusually highly developed 'mothering' instinct towards the kittens.
You mentioned frustration and not understanding why Cookie did what she did and how brutal it was.
Let me share a story with my own dogs with you. Maybe it will help. I got 2 female puppies from the same litter. Xena: Small Black more subordinant personality. Gabby: Big Yellow with a more dominant personality. (I dunno how much you know about dog pack dynamics, so I'll just explain for the sake of thoroughness: Please forgive if you know all this already).
Dogs instinctively exist (when not badgered and manipulated unnaturally by people) in a rigid pack heirarchy. They go through a lot of minor scuffles in puppyhood to figure out who is the Alpha, Beta, Omega, etc....Every dog has their role. Problems only occur if the dogs are unsure of what their role is.
Pack fights result. Which start as posturing and glaring at first (not always apparent to their humans: We can be an oblivious lot)...but if not resolved, can develop over a few months into slowly escalating matches of shreiking, snarling, hairy dustballs of fury....and eventually, to minor, then major bloodshed and death. Dog fights are vocal and scairy to watch, but dogs try very hard not to cause real harm to each other. It is only when they have no other discourse, or have been trained by humans to act in ways contrary to their nature that this is different.
My two siblings, raised from puppyhood together, began, at about 1 year old to have fights...which escalated. And the trigger, was me and my husband. It got to the point where if I so much as looked at the little black Xena, that Gabby would shoot out of her dog crate and jump her. We would have a shriking, furniture tossing mess. Which would be worse if we pulled Gabby off and seperated them.
We considered Euthenizing Gabby (because they were backyard bred dogs, and not bred by a reputable breeder, they showed signs of personality anxiousness which made them unsuitable for ownership in most households). Finally, I called the dog trainer who we'd taken them to early on to learn how to train them properly on our own.
She told me this: They are female siblings from the same litter. That makes for what in the wolf/dog world, is the most inherantly volitile natural pack relationship that exists. Because in the wild, it is the females of a litter that fight for breeding rights: Only the alpha female breeds. So often, fights can be to the death. Death fights are rare, but percentage wise, that combination of rivals has more death fights than any other.
She said what was happening was this: Me and my husband are pack Alphas. We showed Gabby and Xena equal attention and love. In Xena's mind, that meant that the Alphas of the pack, did not support Gabby as Beta...and that she had a chance to rise above her Omega status. So she would not show respect to Gabby. Oh, she wouldn't challenge her to a fight, but she would give suble dog body posture and looks that would be the equivilant of sticking her tongue out at Gabby and giving her the razzberry, and flipping her off with the middle finger. Gabby was stuck in the middle. It was her duty and right to put the bratty Xena in her place. But Gabby's Alphas, my hubby and I, were undermining her authority by not supporting her as we should. We were PRAISING the BRAT! So Gabby began to get more desperate. Until, all it would take is me looking at Xena to provoke Gabby into jumping her and saying "Mom may not support me on this, but by god you WILL respect my rank!"
The trainer said to fix this, we would have to first, spend time reassuring Gabby that she was the boss and we respected it. Because we'd interfered and undermined her so often, it would take a while to regain her trust in us. Also, we had to reenforce Xena's Omega status. So, for 6 months, my husband and I ignored Xena. We fed her, we talked kindly too her, but we otherwise ignored her. Gabby got ALLLL the love and attention. Gabby got fed first. Gabby got played with first. Gabby got EVERYTHING. If Gabby jumped Xena in one of those scairy shrieking matches, I let them fight it out. Xena would yeild, shreking. Gabby would back off satisfied. Noisy, nasty looking, but both dogs were fine afterwards.
The violence subsided. Then disappeard altogether. Gabby was sure of her place and had no reason to defend it in a panic. Xena was sure of her place. She had no reason to think she was bigger than her britches because mom and dad favored her. Eventually, it got to where I could pay attention to Xena some, and Gabby would be fine. But Gabby is first in all things. I also have to keep in mind that the natural rivalry will never go away. So I have to be mindful of it when I enteract with them always. I've had them for 5 years and they are both great dogs now.
This could have had a much different ending. Gabby could have been put to sleep. Or Xena could have had her throat torn out.
The point of this long rambling story is...I made the mistake of treating my dogs in human/primate terms. Which would be fine if dogs operated the same way. But they are dogs. Their brains aren't wired like ours. Yes, they can adapt to our strangeness sometimes and seem to be able to read our minds...but they are canines first and will act as canines always.
The good thing is, their social society and our social society are complementary enough that we have leaned to work together and enjoy each other. But only in terms of our natural compatability, not because dogs learn to be humans. Any problems that come from dog/people relations occur because humans miss the signs and messages or try to make dogs into something they are not. Some dogs are submissive enough, and the relationship with their people is strong enough by nature and work that this is not a problem. But problems occur because we fail to understand and work with them on their terms.
Back to Cookie. In the simplest terms, in the wild, dogs are pack hunters. Anything not pack is either potential rival/danger or is prey. Cookie has come from a situation where she <she?> has been damaged of her natural pack sensibilities because of an abusive owner. So she is a submissive fearful mess. You didn't mention any attacks on people, just a fear of them. So, I will say she is NOT a vicious dog. Just a dog in need of lots of wisdom from anyone who owns her. (We're the ones with bigger brains...it's our place to make the effort to understand and work with their shortcomings, not theirs, ours.)
Those kittens are not part of Cookie's pack. They are interlopers into her fragile domain. They are slow moving interesting targets. They are even lunch on the hoof. She is behaving as any average, normal dog would. It is MORE unnatural that any dog would be /protective/ of what is rightfully a prey animal. And those situations only occur in dogs who are both more submissive in nature, nurturing enough in nature, and have enough strong bonding with their owners to be able to trust their owners judgement in all things and be willing to do so . A VERY difficult and long term thing to achieve really.
All of that makes it so it doesn't suprise me in the LEAST that she chased, grabbed, and tore them to shreds. A wolf would have eaten them too, but dogs have had enough centuries of behavior modification in the form of both good and bad breeding, that some instincts are dulled, and others strenghthened in unusual ways.
Thing is, yes, she might be trained out of it.../IF/ all her other bigger issues could be dealt with first. My two dogs would eat any cat that came within reach, not just kittens. Their mother, who lives next door has EATEN several cats who came into her domain (we have seen bits of them in her fenced yard). The dogs on the other side of us LOVE cats....they consider them little dogs. None of these dogs are vicious or bad animals.
Question is, what is more important to you as an owner? Half-feral cats and kittens or your formally abused dog? You and your family are clearly animal lovers, and want to take care fo any who come to your doorstep. That is so rare and a wonderful thing to see. But all of those animals are gonna come, as you well know, with special needs and special considerations that non-rescue dogs and cats won't ever need. This situation is just an example of 2 species with their own special needs clashing. It has the possibility be solved in the long run, hopefully with no further deaths on either side, but it will take money (spaying) and hard work (learning, or finding a new home for Cookie).
I don't know if this helps you in the least, but maybe it will give you a little help in understanding where your dog is coming from.
If you haven't done it, look up dog behavior sites online. Search dog trainers. (Sometimes they are such dog lovers, that they will be willing to give free advice just because they so want happy dogs. You may also mention that you are looking for a home for Cookie. Stressing that you know she needs lots of understanding and an owner who is willing to work with her at least as well as you can. Contact dog rescue societies online and in your area. (differnt from humane societies in that they refuse to have a dog euthanized unless every effort to readjust the dog behaviorly has met with failure and the dog is a danger to other people). They may be able to give you advice....and possibly even connect you with someone willing to take Cookie in.
*hugs* for both you and Cookie.
__________________
"Spider sense....tingling."
Posted by Buffy on 27-06-2004 at 14:22:
Here are some websites on Dog Behavior, Wolf Behavior, and Dog/Wolf Hybrids (useful in understanding the differences beween the two among other things).
Not all the best, and not complete, but it will give you a start.
Wolf Sites:
Wolf Park
Siriuspack
Wolf/Dog Hybrid Site:
Dog Wolf Hybrid Behavior, Care, Special Considerations
Dog Behavior/Training (some rescue links included)
Canines dot Com
http://www.adogsbestfriend.com/]A Dog's Best Friend[/URL]
Dog Patch
Simply Sarah: Dog Trainer
__________________
"Spider sense....tingling."
Posted by CricketBeautiful on 27-06-2004 at 16:47:
Elvin, my sympathies. I am so sorry that these things happened. No matter what your final decision, there will be scars.
On the practical side, all Buffy's advice is sound, assuming you have the appropriate resources, including time. I have seen several "animal pscycholgists" on TV, and been quite impressed; I also suspect there is a lot of dangerous pop-psychology out there, so beware.
I would add that you should find an approach that matches your own beliefs and personality, and that of those who will be helping you. It is easier to follow a program that you accept in your heart, than to force yourself to follow one that you do not believe in. Ideally, the person you choose as mentor should help you see why she prefers her approach, and why she rejects others. (Remember Caroline's PTSD bit on Joe in the ML? He's much more likely to do the work necessary if he believes in it.)
Buffy also gave you several other options, which may be more suitable given your situation. I like the rescue society option, but, again, be careful that they aren't overly optimistic. The good ones will welcome your questions and even invite you to visit. The good ones will start with Cookie as she is now, and help her be the best she can be. They will place her in a home suitable for her -- if that means no small animals around, then so be it.
You said the cat was "one of *our* non-tame tabby females". "Non-tame" sounds like she could be a barn-cat -- somewhere between ferel and tame. I'm not against barn cats -- they serve important functions -- provided they are in the country; too many city folk object to normal cat behaviour, and traffic is dangerous. But your family is still responsible for them, and all their offspring, and that includes veterinary services and spaying / neutering, and a responsibility for all her offspring. There may very well be other offspring you don't know about, who had an equally short and terrified life.
Above all, remember: You did the best you could at the time, given your experience and time available. There is no shame in this, and I'm not saying this because of your youth -- life is filled with new challenges, no matter what your age; and, just when you have things mastered, they change the rules. What you need to do now is to research your options carefully, and make the best decisions for all the animals who rely on you now, and those you will have in the future. Accept that there is no ideal solution, only better ones and worse ones.
You are not in this alone; you have a human family beside you, to help with counsel and a shoulder.
You are a good and intelligent person. I have faith that you and your family will make the best choices possible.
Cricket
__________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space.
In that space is our power to choose our response.
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
- Viktor E. Frankl
Posted by Elvin Ruler on 27-06-2004 at 18:22:
Thanks guys.
Cricket - The outside cats are basically your barn-cats, just without a barn. We have about 23 acres of land that they goof off on/prowl around on. We have spayed/neutered some of the cats. The main reason we have such a problem is that one of the spayed cats had two litters of seven-nine kittens in two years. Mom and Dad finally decided that it was cheaper to be out the money for fixing her and several of the other females than to pay for cat food, but the population had settled at quite a nice little number of around twenty-five. Now, of course, the number has fluctuated over the years as some cats get dystemper or snake bit, etc. But generally, it isn't too bad, though we are thinking of taking some of them down to the animal shelter. Also, for years, because, admittedly, of the inbreeding, we've only had one sterile female. The rest were either spayed or couldn't have kittens. The mother of the killed litter was born while we were gone, so we didn't have a chance to tame her. This was her first litter. Most of our outside cats are relatively tame, asking for pets and whatnot, but they're not your "pick-me-up, love me" cats. For the most part, they'd rather be left alone. But like I said, most of the females are infertile. Keeping track of where kittens are is fairly easy, because the older female brings them onto the porch and this was the first litter for the other. Blackie generally only has about 2-3 kittens in a litter, so population control isn't really a problem there, though we do plan on fixing her soon (she's still nursing her current litter, but they're going to be weaned pretty quick. ^_^).
Cookie is going to be put down. Thank you all for your help and advice.
Buffy, if there were a rescue shelter near, we would certainly take her there. I wish that it was just a clash between the species, but unfortunately, I don't think this is the case in this circumstance. We've had Cookie for about 8-9 years, never having any problems with her killing litters in any of those years. She, like the dog next to you, viewed them as little dogs. As far as her status, she's the lowest in the ranks (very, very, sad because I include the lower-ranked cats in there). She's never shown any signs of trying to rise in ranks. She's probably around 12-13 years old at the youngest (we don't know her exact age). She has slowly shown signs of losing her mental facilities. So basically, it's an old-age problem, and, having seen this kind of thing before, is our guess. I wouldn't think of putting Cookie in an aminal shelter. She'd be scared out of her wits and would emotionally suffer. The only real option we have is to put her down. It's better for her, because we don't have the time or resources to do anything better, and it's much better for the cats, to which we do have a responsibility to.
Tengu and Cep - Thanks for your support. As I said, we've had her for a long time, so it isn't that she's not an affectionate animal (she was, towards me). She certainly has never been violent in the past years we've had her. Being a Sheltie, she hasn't been prone to any sort of violence or animosity. But your advice is sound in that my uncle brings his young girls over. The reason we let the cats have kittens is because, living in the country, it's a good idea to have a good number of cats. They are far less dangerous (and friendlier) to my little cousins than the cottonmouths, rattlers, and copperheads that they keep away. We also have no problems with rats/mice/other little rodents. Like I said, they're not really feral. Some are quite friendly. But others, like this mother, aren't quite sure of what to think of us. She's only a little over a year old, and we were gone when she was born and for a while after that. Her litter is the first to actually not be tame.
Again, thank you all for the advice. I wish we had more options available to us, but we don't. Cookie's had a good healthy, happy life with us. She's been well-cared for. She will be put down humanely and gently. If I get my way (most likely not, though), I will be next to her when it's done. Thanks for your support.
Elvin
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Posted by Elvin Ruler on 27-06-2004 at 23:18:
Thanks Cep. *hugs* There probably is something wrong with her, again, we believe related to age. She's doing ok right now. We've let her loose so that she can get food and water, but we're keeping an eye on her. She actually seems to be doing fine, but the fact remains that it or something similar to the situation would probably happen again.
Again, thank you all for your support. It's truly appreciated. 
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What if there is a spoon?
Posted by Firebird on 28-06-2004 at 06:08:
Elvin,
I am so sory to hear about your dog.
I think you are right if an age problem the best thing for Cookie is to let her rest peacefully.
Hope everything else works out
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Like the Phoenix I rise from the fire. Beware all who try to tame me, you may get burned 
Posted by meridianday on 28-06-2004 at 06:15:
*hugs Elvin* Obviously this is not an easy decision but I'm sure it's the best one, made for the right reasons.
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Mallanox : "My mother was Irish and my father was an alien. I was an only child and I dress funny." Posted by Cep on 28-06-2004 at 08:09:
Topic Split
Ok Bufster split it 
This thread has been split into the new thread "Cats and Dogs!".
Please go back to the topic.
*more hugs for Elvin* 
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Thanks Cep
Gatchamania.net Administrator
Posted by Elvin Ruler on 28-06-2004 at 13:02:
Thanks guys. ^_^ You've really helped a lot.
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What if there is a spoon?
Posted by Elvin Ruler on 31-03-2005 at 13:34:
Update: Well, we never put Cookie down. We decided to go ahead and give her a second chance because she didn't show any similar behavior after that. She died of old age yesterday afternoon. I'm glad that we didn't put her down. She was just as happy as she had always been. It definitely leaves a happier memory.
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What if there is a spoon?
Posted by Cep on 31-03-2005 at 16:44:
Aww babes 
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Posted by CricketBeautiful on 31-03-2005 at 17:43:
Hugs Elvin. Lots of hugs and an ear for the good memories and shoulder to help carry the loss.
__________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space.
In that space is our power to choose our response.
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
- Viktor E. Frankl
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