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Posted by clouddancer on 12-07-2008 at 03:02:
Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
In another thread, Hino opened up the question:
If we take LB's statement above,
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and apply it in a slightly different context, how does correlate to our favorite birdies (or does it)??
Ok, before everyone here looks at me cross-eyed, hear me out...
The members of the Science Ninja Team were basically taken and put into the position of battle. Since they were trained since they were children, no one really ever asked them if combat was something they wanted to do or not. So we can rationally say that Nambu (or Anderson) knew what he was getting the future members of the team into (theoretically speaking), whereas the ninjas themselves really had no idea or choice in the matter. Using LB's idea above, doesn't that make Nambu the soldier and the team members the horses???
Discuss.....
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Posted by clouddancer on 12-07-2008 at 03:04:
LB then replied:
Ooh, this opens up all sorts of avenues of speculation. At what point did Nambu actually tell them exactly what he had in mind for them? And did he, at that time, present them with an option to opt out of the team, and go on to do something completely different?
I've always sort of figured that Joe ended up with Nambu when he was eight, after his parents were killed. Ken was probably already around Nambu a lot by then, as his mother was probably sick, and then died when he was eleven. I've generally assumed that Jun and Jinpei came some time after that, followed closely by (if not preceded by) Ryu. (Is there canon for any of this?)
One thing I know, personally, is that children can often be steered by their parents/guardian towards a particular path in life. Children often want to please their parents/guardian, and if something is continually presented to them as the expected/elite/heroic path, they might very well grow up wanting to do just that very thing. Also, children often don't want to be perceived as "letting down the team" where their siblings are concerned, and will stick to the designated path, in spite of misgivings, for fear of letting down the others.
At whatever age he told them he wanted them to be Science Ninjas, I suspect Nambu didn't have too much trouble getting them to go along with this willingly.
Now, this raises ethical issues galore! Does an adult have any business asking their children/wards (or any children), to agree to such a dangerous, life-threatening path? Can a child who is only, say 12-15, properly understand and consent to such a thing? What would Nambu have done if one of them had refused? Kick them out of the house? Say "fine" and let them do something completely different?
Watching Gatch I, I noticed that in the early episodes, Ken was all about the heroism and adventure of what they were doing, but you could see him getting more disillusioned, stressed, and bitter as the episodes went on. To me, it seemed like he was realizing that the very idealized, youthful notions he had about what they were doing were clashing with the nastier and messier reality of a prolonged, near stalemate, war.
What had Nambu told them to expect? Who knows?
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Posted by gatchgirl on 12-07-2008 at 03:06:
This sparks some thought process into my brain... which is the team in my own mind???
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Posted by clouddancer on 12-07-2008 at 03:23:
The reason for my interest
1. This is where my fics are focused right now, at the teams beginning.
2. I have wondered some of the same questions that LB has posed.
and
3. Something I want to bring up after we discuss what Hino has asked, although it may come up in discussing the question on its own.
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Posted by gatchgirl on 12-07-2008 at 03:24:
Maybe it's along the line of springies siggie.... birds of a feather think together.
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Posted by clouddancer on 12-07-2008 at 03:30:
I think it is me being selfish. (not sure that is the word I really mean.)
I have wondered about this for almost a year now and I want someone else to do the thinking for me and tell me what to do. 
Yes TJ I know it is my Universe and I can do what ever I want in it but I still want it to make sense for others as well..... 
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Posted by lborgia88 on 12-07-2008 at 03:48:
It's just occurred to me that Joe knew that Galactor killed his parents. I'm sure he needed NO persuasion from Nambu to fight Galactor. Revenge would likely have been his main motivation to be a Science Ninja.
Ken, I think, would have been motivated by a desire to do the "right" thing, an interest in adventure, and desire, perhaps, to imitate his father (ie. being a pilot).
I think Jun, even at an earlier age, already had her caring/protective side (as seen in her "adoption" of Jinpei as her brother) and would have wanted to go on the team with the others to look out for them, and I also think she has her own taste for adventure (and fast motorcycles).
I see Ryu's motivations being similar -staunch loyalty to the others, and a desire to look out for them in any way he can.
Still, as willing as I think they all would have been, it's still a freaky thing on Nambu's part to want to turn his "children" into an elite combat team intended to fight a future terrorist menace! Perhaps he thought that Galactor would be easier to defeat than they turned out to be.
I would imagine that a big reason why the BOTP people turned Jinpei into Keyop, a creation from a genetics lab, with an odd voice, was to make him seem less like an ordinary 10 year old kid, and therefore less bizarre that he was expected to defend planets from an alien menace.
Posted by gogirl212 on 12-07-2008 at 05:19:
These are all really interesting questions to think about . . . and I don't think it is any kind of cop out to have an open discussion about something you are pondering about writing. I think collaboration and brainstorming, and just debate spark great ideas for writing.
This topic lead me to think about how do you explain to these kids that you are busy training that they are actually going to have to kill people? It's one thing to say "we are going to save the world" - but did he add "oh, and we are going to make you into an elite killing machine too."? How does an 11-year-old get their head around that concept? Is that even possible really, as kids seem to see themselves as indestructable. Or are these kids messed up enough to go there?
What is it like the first time they have to do it? How old are they? Is it a bloodbath (like so many EPs have were goons are slaughtered by the dozen) or is it personal - one on one? How do you flip that switch in a teenager to make them killers? And how is that ok? Is there canon for this too?
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Posted by Ebonyswanne on 12-07-2008 at 07:27:
Gosh!!!
What a can of worms!
Knights trained from the tender of about 7yrs since in England at Seven you were no long considered a child but an adult. Maybe not now, but in a point in history. (Hence why there were so many younger prisoners sent to Australia.)
Could the same idea have applied in Japanese and Chinese cultures where learning to defend yourself from the time you are a child is accepted, a part of life.
Its not so long ago that 16yrs olds went to war.
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Posted by clouddancer on 12-07-2008 at 15:39:
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And that there is one of the concepts I am trying to wrap my mind around. How can, in my case Anderson, consider sending children let alone "his" children go into a war where they are likely to killed or have to kill.
I know a lot of people see Anderson (or Nambu) as being cold and heartless, but for some reason I see Anderson as really coming to love and care for the team. So how does he rationalize what he did and allowed to happen (implants require operations and perhaps experimentation being done) with his love for the team.
Right now in my AU, I see Anderson as being overridden by a higher authority, but seeing as Anderson IS the highest authority in the company that took charge of these children I am not so sure this works --- who would outrank a President of his own company and force him to do this to children????
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Posted by Condorfan on 12-07-2008 at 15:41:
I agree with the posts here, especially LB's about why they joined. I see Joe joining because Nambu saw he would be bent on revenge for his parents' deaths and wanted to chanel it into a positive force for good. If Nambu had given him to an orphanage or foster care, Joe wouldn't have been there long and would have been out on the streets trying to take down Galactor on his own and he wouldn't have lasted long without training.
Ken's father left Ken in Nambu's care. So I agree he probably wants to do his best to please his father, whom everyone believed to be dead but Ken believed he was alive at the time.
I wish the series had given more about Jun's background. Some fics have suggested that Nambu was looking for a boy and took her too. This seems feasible or perhaps he wanted a female's calming influence to balance out all the boys on the team.
I'm not sure why Nambu picked Ryu. The others were orphans, but Ryu has a family. Did Ryu feel alienated from his father and took off on his own? I don't know.
Oh, I'm getting a bit off topic here. Anyway, Ebony brought up a great point of having children being treated as adults at such a young age. I know some cultures have ceremonies or rites of passage for boys to be accepted as men--something which modern day society doesn't have.
Nambu had long suspected Galactor and trained these kids to be Earth's defense. He probably felt he was doing the right thing in sacrificing their best interests to defend Earth but it leads me to wonder if the ends justify the means.
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Posted by clouddancer on 12-07-2008 at 15:43:
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Hmmmm, I like this Ebony. I wonder if there are any "Old" laws around (as you say from a Japanese/Chinese, Russian or Indian culture) that Nambu/Anderson could have fallen back on and used as his basis for recruiting and training.
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Posted by lborgia88 on 12-07-2008 at 17:01:
I had a couple more thoughts.
In the very first episode of Gatchaman, the entire UN seems all shocked at Galactor's attack, and in fact, to have never heard of Galactor. Only Nambu seems to know about Galactor, and to have been expecting an attack of some kind sooner or later.
Maybe for years, his claims that a future global terrorist menace was growing and building strength were laughed off or ignored by the UN, and he ended up training his own wards, and using what ISO resources he could personally commandeer, plus his own money, because he couldn't get anyone else or any other funding.
It's also possible that he was expecting to have more time to prepare the team, and that the first Galactor attack came when, even in his opinion, they were too young, but he decided he didn't have any alternative. He was pretty cautious in the early episodes -ie. telling them only to follow the turtle mecha, not engage it directly, or making them ask permission first before firing bird missiles.
Posted by amyltrer on 12-07-2008 at 20:01:
RE: Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
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No! Nambu is not a soldier!The very definitiion of a soldier is that of a man who stands against the enemy on the battlefield (Gallactor mechas most of the time)
Is the team who does that! Nambu is just coordinating them from behind his office at the ISO quarters. In an war-like analogy he would be the leading General.
The team members have been prepared for just this fight against Gallactor.Of, course, all 5 of them had been highly trained, but in every war,
Soldiers are expendable assests and from what I've seen in the first Gatch, the Jigokiller eps, Nambu is willing to expend one to save the day. And just look how quick he replaced Joe with Getz in Gatch 2.
Given the fact Gatchaman act all as one, that could render the remaining members unable to cope with the stress, to a degree.
As for them not being asked if they want or not to be soldiers in this war, this is one of the nasty sides of ISO (or at least Nambu's) that cartoon editors choose to left in the shadow - children exploitment. From what I've seen they aren't well remunerated either.
Back to Nambu, he knew about Gallactor long before the Syndicate became strong enough to threaten world security! How is that he didn't came up with a better solution than a team of 5 kids?
In BotP Anderson is shown as a paternal figure for the team, something I hardly saw in the original Gatch, where he mostly bosses them around! Which makes me think he sees them more as defense weapons against gallactor, more than anything.
I'm not saying Nambu is a coward. In the 37 and 42 eps of Fighter he displays great skills with a gun. I can only guess he chose to stay off the battle because he's much usefull as the "brain" rather than a mere soldier.
Anyway, I never liked Nambu very much. For someone playing on the good side, he's way too manipulating.
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Posted by katsesama on 12-07-2008 at 21:29:
RE: Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
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Well, at one time he fought as a foot soldier. I guess that's true of generals, too. But I think Nambu could totally hold his own; he just found other ways he could contribute to the war that nobody else could.
In times of war, the amount of great art, writing, etc. goes down, because those people are being killed. So one can argue that Nambu was smart enough to pull himself off the front lines and contribute uniquely.
One could also argue that he took away the choices of five children who might have become great in other ways. (Has anybody written a ff about a life without Galactor or the KNT? How they would have turned out differently?)
I think it's totally unethical to raise children that way; I think it's downright criminal, to the point that I get really fired up about it, so I may not really be able to participate in this thread. I've thought a lot about it, too, before this, and it actually makes me angry. I think it has to do with working with kids in therapy who have been traumatized.
I disagree with it in war-torn lands, too, but at least it makes some sense when you could get blown up walking down the street and every available fighter is needed. To take children and train them to be super-soldiers destroys their youth and any hopes of growing up and having a "normal" life, all before they're developmentally able to make informed or moral choices.
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Posted by Ebonyswanne on 13-07-2008 at 04:38:
RE: Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
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We do need to protect children from trauma.
A young child can still learn how to defend themselves,(through martial arts,) but there has to be right and wrong taught alone side it. (Like you don't use it to bully others...)
I have relatives that are farmers that don't let a child near a gun until they get a license and show they can respect its power it ability to cause harm or death to people. Usually they would be 12yrs onward, then they can't touch the rifle without an adult around to supervise, its kept in a metal locked Safe when its not needed. (I can't use a gun, personally I hate them. I understand why a farmer needs one, but they rarely use them.)
The team have a very ethical out look,( which is why despite Joe's pent up anger, and distrust of people outside of his Immediate circle, I don't see him as a bad boy.) I have to wonder if RI had something to do with Ken becoming a Ninja anyway.
Katsesama if you have helped kids overcome trauma I can understand why it would anger you... You don't have to be a parent to be protective of a child's emotional state and well being.
I'm very protective of what my child see's even at 15 months. (A child knows his/her world more than we think especially from 12 month onward.)
I feel that even in the old days when a young boy trained as a Knight from the age of 7yrs old they would have been protected from the reality (depending upon the knight that trained them, their ethics had to come into it...) of war until they showed they were ready... Probably about 16yrs onward, but then everyday life held a risk of your village being raided. Different world.
ITA about war torn countries, who am I to judge... I don't have to worry about being shot if I step outside of my front door...but then its the brainwashing that goes on with those kids that scares me more than the gun they carry...
Ficcie that made it all to be in Nambu's head.
There is a ficcie that someone wrote as if Galactor didn't exist, and Dr.Nambu was considered extreme in his views. Its was interesting to read, Joe became a Cop in it, Ken a test pilot, Jun ran the Snack J... Jinpei was at school...
Did any of that make any sense???? I'm outta here!
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Posted by gatchgirl on 13-07-2008 at 14:40:
RE: Gatchaman - Horses or Humans
One could also argue that he took away the choices of five children who might have become great in other ways. (Has anybody written a ff about a life without Galactor or the KNT? How they would have turned out differently?)
I think it's totally unethical to raise children that way; I think it's downright criminal, to the point that I get really fired up about it, so I may not really be able to participate in this thread. I've thought a lot about it, too, before this, and it actually makes me angry. I think it has to do with working with kids in therapy who have been traumatized .[/quote]
With a job like yours I could see why you don't like the topic much.
As far as a ficcy, I personally haven't read one but in my mind I play with the idea. The closest I get to actually writing anything about it is, a fic that deals with the group after they are "retired" from the group. Only to allow the next set of kids to fight.
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Posted by Blackbird on 13-07-2008 at 16:38:
It was one of Jane Lebak's; found it here.
http://www.gatchfanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=546
I remember reading it, just reread it. I liked it.
There was another story posted to the botpml, similar, where I think Keyop was the main subject. I don't recall who did that one, but it was good too.
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 13-07-2008 at 23:23:
This was always the area that made you wonder. But then at least they aren't hardened killers in the series. And Ken hates any form of killing really, so it does make you wonder what he would have chosen to do it the team didn't exist. Would have become a soldier at all?? Or just a guy who loves flying.
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Posted by Ebonyswanne on 13-07-2008 at 23:24:
This was always the area that made you wonder. But then at least they aren't hardened killers in the series. And Ken hates any form of killing really, so it does make you wonder what he would have chosen to do it the team didn't exist. Would have become a soldier at all?? Or just a guy who loves flying.
And the Swan? I bet she would have ran her business and married and had children. (Raised Jinpei who would have gone into marine animals
Ryu... a sailor all the way..
Joe, he might have become a soldier anyway...or raced all over the world like he does in the series.
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