Gatchamania.net (http://www.gatchamania.net/index.php)
- [Speak Up!] (http://www.gatchamania.net/board.php?boardid=500)
-- General Discussion (http://www.gatchamania.net/board.php?boardid=2)
--- Scientology vs SJ (http://www.gatchamania.net/threadid.php?threadid=1425)
Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 12-12-2007 at 16:18:
Scientology vs SJ
Before you read. Please know that I am not insulting Scientology or anyone's beliefs here. Whilst I certainly don't believe Scientology, nor completely understand it, I have my own faith and just get irked when people try to convert me or make money in the name of ... ya know. I believe people should believe whatever they want, and whatever they feel is important to them to get them through their lives and struggles - that, the belief in one's own eternity/fate/deity, is more important than any structured religion.
Hell. Some days I'm Agnostic, some I'm Buddhist, other times I fall upon Anglican ... more often than not Agnostic or Buddhist. Flash and his family are Buddhist, as is my Son, so my heart and faith rests there.
This is solely my reaction when cornered after blindly falling into the trap.
Let me tell you a little story ...
To those who know me, I am a feisty little shit. I love a good debate ... I especially love to catch an opponent off-guard, who obviously hasn't learnt of a wonderful research tool known as the Internet.
So let me set the scene for you...
Two weeks ago, Saturday, first cold snap of the Toronto Winter. Flash was playing in a baseball tournament, I was the doting wife watching from the stands. Josh was placed in daycare and I was settled in with Baileys and Coffee and ready to enjoy a day with some friends watching my darling play baseball.
What I didn't know, was that it was minus 12 degrees outside. That is not an exaggeration.
I was dressed in:
Thermal undees
Thermal shirt
Singlet
Jeans
Long sleeve fleece shirt
Sweater
Ugg boots
and two - count that - TWO down-filled winter jackets.
I had two hoods, a toque (beanie to the Aussies) two pairs of winter gloves, and three, yes three, fleece blankets.
And I still froze my ass off. The players, who were all a damn sight colder than I was, were all laughing and saying how cute I was.
Anyway. So two LONG games later, they send us to a pub for a lunch break. We eat, drink a couple of beers, and make our way back to the diamond.
Well. We wives say "no fucking way are we sitting in THAT again!" We grab wallets from our husbands and head off to the flea-markets with the promise of hot chocolate from Tim Hortons on our return.
This is where my story was supposed to begin.
So.
The three of us are wandering, spending copious amounts on shit, and then we see it. "Free Stress Test"
Interesting.
The testers smile, call us over, separate us and strap us to an antique-looking machine.
Red Flag moment. This woman is far too friendly. This woman is obviously ready to sell me something.
Time for SJ to have some fun ....
So she straps me to this machine and asks me to think about the people in my life. I smile, close my eyes and clear my mind. It's blank. I'm thinking of nothing. I'm happy. I'm content. ... I'm actually buzzed from a lot of Bailleys and a few beers.
Lo and behold - the machine goes off the charts.
I chuckle at her gasp and shake my head. Immediately she turns psychoanalyst and starts to ask me what's wrong in my life.
Me being me, and having no desire to open up to a complete stranger, I feed her a load of bullshit.
She asks me how I relieve my stress. Oh that answer is simple. With a straight face, but a tilted head, I respond: "With sex."
Her eyes blink and she sits back quickly. "Oh."
"Yes," I continue. "I'm not actually being cute. Solely from a biological and Physiological standpoint, sex is a rather effective stress reliever ... To a smaller extent so is chocolate. Both, you see, release a chemical from the brain knows as Endorphin, which is ..."
She stops me and looks to her side at a book.
Then the sales pitch ...
She hands me a book and tells it will change my life.
I flick a brow skyward and let my eyes scan slowly across the author's name. I snort, check my watch to see if I have time to play and hand it back to her.
"Hubbard," I remark coolly.
She perks up. "Oh, you know the name?"
My brow is still firmly skyward which is then joined by the second as she hands the book back. I wave my hand, shake my head and politely decline with an added: "I'm very familiar with the name, and I am not interested."
She offers across that his book is about how to reduce your stress and improve your life.
My answer is simple. "I'm Buddhist."
She continues. "This book is all about how the human mind functions and how to lower your stress."
Again. "I, and my family, are Buddhist."
"But ..."
I clear my throat to interrupt her and place my hand on the cover of the book ... therein begins my dialogue:
"I assume you represent the Church of Scientology, which I respect. This author is the founder of your church, so therefore I must suggest that this particular book has religious overtones..."
"What do you know about Scientology?" she interrupts in a snippy-yet-saccharine manner.
"Oh, enough to know that I am in no way interested in purchasing anything written by this individual that might suggest how the human mind functions - with all due respect of course."
"If you want to improve your life ..."
My turn to interrupt. "I am a Buddhist. We're all about not being stressed ..."
"Well obviously you are stressed."
I snort. "As I am sure everyone with a pulse is when they put their hands on to a static-energy reader. Please prove to me the truthfulness of this machine by allowing me to test you on it. If your literature is as effective as you are selling it to be, then I expect you should read zero-stress."
She shakes her head. "What do you know about Scientology?"
I snicker. "It's false advertising, that's for sure."
"Meaning?"
"Scientology, if I were to break the word down it would directly translate to "the study of science". Whilst in some small way this might include aliens and interplanetary travel, and might, perhaps allow you to explore the possibility that a spaceman created this planet, I would certainly expect that the entire doctrine might embrace and welcome all branches of the scientific tree."
"Well it does."
"To some extent perhaps, but to disclaim and disallow scientific beneficial breakthroughs such as medication ... when the individual who created such a doctrine is by no means a certified doctor, nor a recognized scientific researcher, well That kinds of negates it all really."
"We don't believe in aliens, you know."
I smirk. "At all, then? No forms of life on other planets?"
"No."
"That's pretty naive, then." I take a breath. "Or would it be ignorant to science to believe that?"
She grunts. "Whatever do you mean?"
Did I detect a note of facetiousness in that question? Heh. The gloves are most certainly off. "Well. Aside from the fact that there is scientific proof to the existence of carbon-based, fossils from Mars, our most closest planetary neighbour, for anyone to believe that in our entire universe, that Earth is the only planet that can sustain any form of life would be somewhat egotistical, yes?"
"Perhaps. But I suppose you are alluding to Area 51 ..."
I laugh. "Ahh, yes. I am an X-Files fan, however I do not believe in aliens visiting Earth now, nor in the near future. Whether or not Area 51 truly exists I won't speculate on. I don't believe that Aliens are among us. I do completely believe, however, that there is life out there in other galaxies."
"Oh."
"Yes, indeed, oh. But I think we've digressed enough from you actual reason for us being here in the first place. I want to thank you, though."
"I still urge you to buy the book."
I can't help but allow my brow to flick once more. "Wow. Look, I don't want to badmouth the dead, but I have an honest belief that Mr. Hubbard was a complete fruitcake. I really have no desire to spend money on reading what he thinks happens inside our mind."
"Well we have followers such as John Trav--"
I put up my hand to stop her right there ... "Yes, yes, and Tom Cruise, I know, I know ... I am not a celebrity tool, okay? I don't want some fancy fad-of-the-moment pretty-boy telling me what to believe." I begin to walk away. "But thank you for allowing me to waste time, it's been ... interesting."
"Perhaps," she calls, halting me in my retreat. "Perhaps you need to join a seminar and learn a little about Scientology."
Woah, don't get the point, much? I roll my eyes with a smile and shake my head. "Did that when I was sixteen, was sorely disappointed. But thank you for the invite."
"It might do you good to broaden your mind."
Oh good God - pardon the pun. I smile and tip a shoulder innocently to my ear very a'la Swannie. "I tell ya what. You attend temple and familiarize yourself with the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, and I will buy your book and attend a seminar."
"Buddhism? No. I have a chosen belief, thank you."
"Oh but we have followers such as Richard Gere ..."
She clears her throat and glares. "Oh, touche."
I wink and turn to leave. "Goodluck ...."
Of course I return, then to the cold-cold-cold diamond with equally cold Hot chocolates (hey, they were hot when we arrived AT the diamond) to find Flash and his team in the final.
They win.
We go home ...
I know. Tame by my usual standards ... But damn why can't they just accept "not interested" as an answer?!
why?
SJ
__________________
Sighhh
Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.
Posted by Sosai X on 12-12-2007 at 17:49:
Good for you, SJ! I consider Scientology to be an extremely dangerous cult. People should investigate the history and claims of this cult before they get involved with it. Some of the stuff that Scientology has pulled off is a real eye opener.
Here are some sites one should check out:
Operation Clambake
The Secrets of Scientology
Scientology
Scientology Lies
And the South Park episode that takes on Scientology is a must see! 
__________________
Cheers,
Tim
Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 12-12-2007 at 20:31:
Oh gosh ... What awesome reading!
Thank you Sosai! Now I am even more armed for debate next time I fall victim to their trap.
BTW, the E-Meter described in the sites is exactly what was used to test my stress level.
Interesting, interesting.
And, damn. That is quite scary when you analyze the writings in those sites ....
SJ
__________________
Sighhh
Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.
Posted by Tengu on 12-12-2007 at 20:43:
Scientology is no danger to those who are tough
what happens to the weak, doesnt matter.
Hubberd was a great guy and is still well thought of in the SF community.
That he had some weird beliefs is no matter; Many great people have weird beliiefs (though that is sometimes played down)
__________________
"If you think I am a Condor, you may keep that opinion;
Though I am no Condor, my Skylines rusty enough."
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 12-12-2007 at 21:57:
SJ that reminded me of a time when I first moved to Sydney(I was 18 and I had just finished the HSC), I was waiting at Parramatta station for my boyfriend to pick me up..
Some guy was trying to sell a contriversal newspaper, and his ideals. Well he had just been fobbed off by some people and when he got to me he just wouldn't move on...Normally i wouldn't do what I did. And I haven't done it again.(Not even to the scientologist who bugged me every time I walked out of work when I was in the city.)
See one of my main subjects was Modern History, which I did very well in. The Cold war was a core subject and I did a few essays on it a few weeks before in my exams...The expansion of Communism etc.
What he was selling was socialism and he tried to tell me it was the better way to live than what we had now....Australia was not branded the lucky country for nothing...
I smiled sweetly and gave a few good facts on communism and socialism and why it wouldn't be good for Australia. I just happened to know a lot more about the subject than he did at the time(it was 1990).
Then I turned to the back page of his newspaper, the founder of his group was none other than Trotsky, one of Stalins followers who got on his bad side and fled Russia...not that he managed to out run Stalin.
I told the man to go to the library and do some research into what he was following...
He went away then from the pick up area...
Look I have nothing against Scientology, but they just clash with my own beliefs. Hubberd in my eyes was just a person who wrote books that must have managed to inspire people in some weird way...but then I'm not into cults.
__________________
Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.
Posted by Sosai X on 12-12-2007 at 22:02:
| quote: | |
|
WTF? Are you for real? Oh my.
I like to see you tell that to the family of Lisa McPherson.| quote: | |
|
You mean the way you are playing down Hubbard's own "weird" beliefs. I suggest you actually do some reading about the man.
__________________
Cheers,
Tim
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 12-12-2007 at 23:07:
Ahhh the world we live in today of political correctness...always trying not to offend anyone...
Hubbard was weird, the cult has no real influence over here at all. I just hope it stays that way.
__________________
Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.
Posted by Tengu on 13-12-2007 at 10:13:
why should I worry my head over something that is no threat to me?
__________________
"If you think I am a Condor, you may keep that opinion;
Though I am no Condor, my Skylines rusty enough."
Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 13-12-2007 at 14:07:
| quote: | |
|
I honestly don't know how to respond to a comment like that. I admit to being somewhat offended by the remark, especially as a parent to a 2-and-a-half year old child, and the daughter-in-law to an almost 80 year old man who is currently weak and in hospital.
What happens to the two of them most certainly matters.
But, that is your belief and I respect that. I don't agree, but I certainly won't judge you for it.
Each to their own, right?
SJ
__________________
Sighhh
Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.
Posted by CricketBeautiful on 13-12-2007 at 15:20:
Yep, what happens to the weak doesn't matter. How could it? I mean, it's not like they'd encourage their children to join. Give it their fortunes and then rely on welfare to support themselves and their kids. Leave friends who care because they don't worship in the same way. Go to war because their God tells them to. Nope, doesn't matter at all.
No man is an island, and if you think you are, then I pray that you never need help, because the strong have been over-loaded caring for the weak you abandoned, and doing the work the weak could have done, except they never had the opportunity to become strong.
Any movement that separates you and goes after you when you're weak (especially one that manufactures weakness) is bad. Any movement that tells you to abandon anyone outside is bad (with the exception of groups like AA, and even they don't tell you to avoid your former friends, just avoid situations where you might be tempted; asking a friend to meet you at a coffee bar isn't the same as asking them to join your church.)
When an elderly neighbour's husband died, other neighbours called yet another, who was a Presbyterian minister. Hid reply was, "She is not a member of my congregation, and she has not called me. I am not refusing to help her, but I won't interfere."
SJ, thank you! for sucking up her time so she wasn't able to harass someone less able to defend themselves!
__________________
Between stimulus and response there is a space.
In that space is our power to choose our response.
In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
- Viktor E. Frankl
Posted by Tengu on 13-12-2007 at 21:20:
I `am` a person who needs help but doesnt get it because Im too old, as a matter of fact.
Have the Scientologists gone to war over anything of late?? Im sure I would have heard.
Has anyone gone to wat over religion of late??????
__________________
"If you think I am a Condor, you may keep that opinion;
Though I am no Condor, my Skylines rusty enough."
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 13-12-2007 at 22:11:
My Grandmother had some really good advice..
1. Never argue about politics or religion...no one ever wins because everyone has different views.
2. Never lie to your doctor, because he/she are the ones who are going to help get through illness and find a cure.
3. Never lie to your lawyer because thats the person who'll keep you outta goal.
4. Love your mum and dad, because it started out with them looking after you when you were to young to do things for yourself, one day they will need you too...because that is being a family.
One thing about wars and religion...from what I have found through study, it is usually a personal agenda that starts the war, not the faith...unfortunately religion gets used as a tool by bullies, or manipulation. You just have to know the difference and not focus on the wrong things.
If you read about religions, the general idea is peace in all of them. War is not encouraged...but I guess the more people you have that follow on ideal, the more likely it is that there will be a bad egg amongst them.
Cricket...I don't think much of cults either that Separate themselves from society and use God or their religion as a reason for not showing compassion, even if the person is not part of their congregation. That is a very narrow view for a minister, so just pray for him I say to see a broader view outside his own flock.
__________________
Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.
Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 14-12-2007 at 00:08:
Drunk Swan alert - Work Christmas party and no glasses on - beware the following post may not be coherant
Ahh, guys I'm sorry. I didn't mean to invoke a religious war here - I just had a story to tell and wanted to tell it.
Ebony is right, Discussions about religion or politics usually end up badly because everyone has differing opinions.
Ordinarily on this site the discussions can be adult and civil, which is one of the reasons I chose to tell my story. I want to apologise as a preemptive strike should things get ugly here.
I suppose the point I was trying to make is the ushy nature of "recruiters" - not just in SCientology or religion, but in anything. I guess I kind of hoped that you guys might have similar tales to tell about telemarketers/donation hunters/church/etc.
Cos let's face it. We get hounded on every step we make these days ...
I, personally, find varyinf opinions and debates wondeful - as I said I love a good debate. The links that Sosai offered were a wonderful, informative, scary read ...
Tengu, if you want to share your own links supporting your opinion, I would be happy to read them also.
This, again, was not originally about sccientology per se. I react this way all the time when cornered and pressured into believing something someone else believes in ...
You should see me react on vegetarians when they curse me out for eating meat, or anti=smokers when I light up ...
Scientology ain't special in my books. I put it at the same level as a star trek fandom - fanatical, but nothing more than a science fiction fantasy.
Does that mean I scoff at a trekkie or a scientologist for loving/beleiving like they do? No, not at all - but you try and convince me to think like you - Fuck, you could try and convince me of the benefits of Gatch over BotP, and I will still come down on your ass ... really ....
Ugh ... I can't see or think straight right now. a six-pack in a four hour period is not a good idea for a cheila who rarely drinks ....
SJ
__________________
Sighhh
Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 14-12-2007 at 00:17:
I love a good debate too SJ, it's much easier if you can sit down with the person...less room for misunderstandings...
So SJ are we a cult because we have this obsession about Gatch! 
__________________
Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.
Posted by Sosai X on 16-12-2007 at 01:57:
Here's some more interesting info...
The Fisherman Affidavit
The site says it best... The case file for Church of Scientology International v. Fishman and Geertz contains over 700 documents. This web page presents a declaration filed by Steven Fishman on April 9, 1993 in which he included the OT (Operating Thetan) materials as exhibits.
What an eye opening.
__________________
Cheers,
Tim
Posted by Ebonyswanne on 16-12-2007 at 07:29:
I see Soasi X that you are very passionate about this topic... 
OK that was my cheeky nature coming out...
__________________
Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up- Pablo Picasso.
Posted by Sosai X on 16-12-2007 at 07:38:
LOL! I'm distrustful of any cult. I got the above link from the Doctor Who Message board where there is a very active thread about Germany trying to ban Scientology (in their politics section). It's the first time I saw this particular link and thought I would share.
__________________
Cheers,
Tim
Posted by Madilayn on 22-12-2007 at 22:18:
I must admit - I'm a fan of Hubbard's writing - "Battlefield Earth" is a fave of mine (not the movie - the book), but yes, the man was nutty as a fruitcake.
It was almost as if writing sci-fi took over his brain and he started to believe his fiction!!!
That done - SJ, can you come over to my place and play with the religious door knockers who visit?
__________________
"When I'm old, I don't want them to say of me, "She's so charming." I want them to say, "Be careful, I think she's armed." -G. Stoddart
Posted by SJ_SwanJun on 23-12-2007 at 01:00:
| quote: | |
|
Bolding is mine
Oh. Maddy. Playing with door knockers is my specialty! I love breaking apart all their shit.
Hell, I remember getting kicked out of Sunday School class (was raised Anglican) when I was about 8 or 9 for a few reasons (including referring to the bible as a book of stories - she didn't buy the argument that from a TECHNICAL and LITERAL standpoint it is a book of tales ... I wasn't actually knocking the importance of it)
I argued all points. Think Bart Simpson - that was me.
I could get into the arguments, but I won't lest I upset some people.
We've had fun with door knockers.
I could tell you of the ways I have pissed or scared them from my door - but my brother has the best story ... His is sheer brilliance. Might tell you about that one day.
It involves smut, so I might have to think about the nicest way to put it ... LOL
SJ
__________________
Sighhh
Why do men snore when lying on their backs?
Because their balls fall over their butt holes and they vapour lock.
Posted by kimiko on 23-12-2007 at 13:20:
I hear ya SJ! When I was living in Burlington, we always had the Jehova's Witnesses coming around knocking. Now my brother-in-law is one and he was over visiting, (picture him as a jamaican-canadian...ummm...oh hell with the PC description...he's a black Larry the Cable Guy!)
The best "visit" we had from them was when my BIL was over having brewskis with us and I told them to "hold on...I have someone who like to talk to you..." . The look of shock on their faces was priceless! After 15 minutes they're trying to politely move on to the next door...LMAO!!!! How ironic!
__________________
Putting the "Con" in Condor....Ooooo... shiny red button!
Powered by: Burning Board Lite 1.1.2c © 2001-2004 WoltLab GmbH
English translation by Satelk
Site Coded by Cep